RE: What happened to the Rallye? PH Blog
Discussion
Snap! (or rather, bang)
I swerved to avoid someone doing a brake-test on me. Pefectly straight bit of road. Greasy though. Tyres were Goodyear Eagle F1s, but if they've got nothing to hold onto they may as well have been Chinese re-moulds.
Did your airbags go off? Mine didn't, which is a bit concerning.
I swerved to avoid someone doing a brake-test on me. Pefectly straight bit of road. Greasy though. Tyres were Goodyear Eagle F1s, but if they've got nothing to hold onto they may as well have been Chinese re-moulds.
Did your airbags go off? Mine didn't, which is a bit concerning.
dukebox9reg said:
I fully agree, very predictable and you can carry a lot of speed through bends. Never really had the back end swing out on me but I assumed that might have been due to the very heavy lump on the nose.
Having driven a 306 D-Turbo and two 205 GTIs I found the 306 the least predictable. Also drive a 309 GTi and found that to be the most predicable of the 3.dukebox9reg said:
alcatraz236 said:
306 is predictable and not difficult to drive fast
I fully agree, very predictable and you can carry a lot of speed through bends. Never really had the back end swing out on me but I assumed that might have been due to the very heavy lump on the nose.I agree it really can eat bends at speed but, as you say the balance is more toward the front. It's not really a widowmaker - the cause of that is probably assuming it's faster than it is.
With any fwd car if you're on the edge of cornering capability and then upset the car through braking (plus tyres, wet road, wobbly british road) then you're going to learn a lesson - and it's a shame he did in such a nice car.
storminnorman said:
In his defense I'm not sure you can learn the traits of a car in 10 days.
I agree it really can eat bends at speed but, as you say the balance is more toward the front. It's not really a widowmaker - the cause of that is probably assuming it's faster than it is.
With any fwd car if you're on the edge of cornering capability and then upset the car through braking (plus tyres, wet road, wobbly british road) then you're going to learn a lesson - and it's a shame he did in such a nice car.
Could say he was being reckless then only knowing it for 10 days and driving 'exuberantly' I agree it really can eat bends at speed but, as you say the balance is more toward the front. It's not really a widowmaker - the cause of that is probably assuming it's faster than it is.
With any fwd car if you're on the edge of cornering capability and then upset the car through braking (plus tyres, wet road, wobbly british road) then you're going to learn a lesson - and it's a shame he did in such a nice car.
Glad you're OK, and respect for coming on here to discuss it. There's potential here for others to learn from your mistake, and learning from the errors of others is definitely the cheapest and least painful way to do it.
FWD French cars used to be set up so you could exploit the basic physics of it to have fun, but modern cars tend to insulate drivers so much that it's easier to get caught out when you do encounter something that behaves as it should.
The only times the back has stepped out on our 306 there has been an obvious reason for it - off the power over damp crest, a patch of mud on the nearside, etc.
It's a shame the PH editorial team have so far ignored any attempt to get them to engage with driver training. Is now the time? Perhaps you'd like to join us in Shaftesbury in May: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I may have to quote this thread the next time we get a 'best tyres of the front or back?' thread, and the usual suspects chime in with 'I'd much rather have oversteer than understeer'.
FWD French cars used to be set up so you could exploit the basic physics of it to have fun, but modern cars tend to insulate drivers so much that it's easier to get caught out when you do encounter something that behaves as it should.
The only times the back has stepped out on our 306 there has been an obvious reason for it - off the power over damp crest, a patch of mud on the nearside, etc.
It's a shame the PH editorial team have so far ignored any attempt to get them to engage with driver training. Is now the time? Perhaps you'd like to join us in Shaftesbury in May: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I may have to quote this thread the next time we get a 'best tyres of the front or back?' thread, and the usual suspects chime in with 'I'd much rather have oversteer than understeer'.
RIP Rallye!
Big shame, I've seen many 106 and 306 meet this fate over the years, seems that if you can get past 6 months or so ownership point (or xx no. miles) you're generally going to be OK but approach it too quickly or without similar experience and you're increasing the potential to be bitten.
Worst tyres I used on the 106 Rallye were P6000 - was like driving on ice and spun her at low speed a few times though not above 20mph tbh, she was low on grip but controllable on the throttle at least. Best I used (sadly discontinued) were Bridgestone Potenza RE720 and I still have a slightly hard, mostly used set on my storage wheels (as opposed to the perfect white steels I keep for running her). Rear auto load adjusters tend to seize closed rather than open though I did have one seize open (sideways towards pedestrian crossings at 10mph terrifies people - I was appologising to them before stationary as the opposite lock braking maneuvre was entirely controllable) before eventually giving up buying them at £70 a time and opting to run the brakes inside the car with a bias valve mounted behind the gearstick.
Need to get her back on road tyres once the current A048s are worn out as I miss sliding her around and don't relish seat of the pants moments when I see a puddle at the last minute! Actually, need to get her an MOT as she's sitting in dry storage still, fully insured etc but hasn't been out in ages! All the free time I have has been spent playing on motorbikes!
Big shame, I've seen many 106 and 306 meet this fate over the years, seems that if you can get past 6 months or so ownership point (or xx no. miles) you're generally going to be OK but approach it too quickly or without similar experience and you're increasing the potential to be bitten.
Worst tyres I used on the 106 Rallye were P6000 - was like driving on ice and spun her at low speed a few times though not above 20mph tbh, she was low on grip but controllable on the throttle at least. Best I used (sadly discontinued) were Bridgestone Potenza RE720 and I still have a slightly hard, mostly used set on my storage wheels (as opposed to the perfect white steels I keep for running her). Rear auto load adjusters tend to seize closed rather than open though I did have one seize open (sideways towards pedestrian crossings at 10mph terrifies people - I was appologising to them before stationary as the opposite lock braking maneuvre was entirely controllable) before eventually giving up buying them at £70 a time and opting to run the brakes inside the car with a bias valve mounted behind the gearstick.
Need to get her back on road tyres once the current A048s are worn out as I miss sliding her around and don't relish seat of the pants moments when I see a puddle at the last minute! Actually, need to get her an MOT as she's sitting in dry storage still, fully insured etc but hasn't been out in ages! All the free time I have has been spent playing on motorbikes!
Sorry to hear about this, gutted for you. Like others have said, at least no one was hurt.
The 306 (along with others pugs of the era with a similar set up) can be really easy to upset if the brakes are suddenly hit while some steering lock is applied. My old 309 GTI reacted in a similar way - can be fun, but not if it catches you unaware.
The 306 HDI I picked up for my GF last year came with p6000s all round - my first job was a new set of Toyo TR1s all round, a no brainer at £35 a corner. New tyres won’t prevent you having an accident, but they sure will give you more of a fighting chance if things get out of shape (or prevent things getting out of shape in the first place).
I know you mention lack of space in terms of getting it back on the road yourself, but surely worth having a go as a project - 306 parts are plentiful!
All the best whatever you decide to do
The 306 (along with others pugs of the era with a similar set up) can be really easy to upset if the brakes are suddenly hit while some steering lock is applied. My old 309 GTI reacted in a similar way - can be fun, but not if it catches you unaware.
The 306 HDI I picked up for my GF last year came with p6000s all round - my first job was a new set of Toyo TR1s all round, a no brainer at £35 a corner. New tyres won’t prevent you having an accident, but they sure will give you more of a fighting chance if things get out of shape (or prevent things getting out of shape in the first place).
I know you mention lack of space in terms of getting it back on the road yourself, but surely worth having a go as a project - 306 parts are plentiful!
All the best whatever you decide to do
heebeegeetee said:
It'll be the budget rear tyres wot done it. You can put almost what you like on the front, but you want good tyres on the back on any sort of hottish hatch.
I picked up an old 1.8 Focus when I was 18. It came on ditch finders and 2nd damp roundabout, the back came out. Luckily no one was around and i managed to catch it. Did the same twice on a country lane bend and I was only going 40ish max. My ST170 did the same even on decent tyres but it had to be 'provoked' more to do it.
Doesnt have to be a hot hatch as neither of these cars are, but in my experience of FWD, the worst thing (natural thing for more unexperienced drivers) is to slam the brakes. If this happens, a good amount of throttle and 'catching it' in time should bring it back.
Thankfully I got bored of FWD after trying RWD / AWD (on a track) and will never go back!
vrooom said:
how can you crash a fwd car ?
The basic premise is that if force applied to tyres unintentionally exceeds grip available then unexpected trajectory occurs. Once unexpected trajectory has occurred we move onto the second stage of the equation where solid variables can be introduced. If unexpected trajectory intersects with solid variable before speed equals zero then the result will fall within the parameters for smashiness. CAR had a new 306 Gti-6 at their annual handling day review in 96. IIRC it 'surprised' a few of them out on track - a bit like the 405 Mi-16 at the Autocar day a few years before.
Shame about your car - a lot of old hot hatches like the 306s, 106s, VTS, Astra 16v Mk2, 205s will punish a sudden lift/touch of the brakes with any lock on.....much more than a modern equivalent
Shame about your car - a lot of old hot hatches like the 306s, 106s, VTS, Astra 16v Mk2, 205s will punish a sudden lift/touch of the brakes with any lock on.....much more than a modern equivalent
Fully agree with above - driver training is important and my future kids will be fully versed in advanced techniques prior to venturing into a world where idiots are permitted to drive, vehicle maintenance is likely to be lower priority for many than missing their favourite TV soap opera and it's illegal to run a good tyre at 1mm but legal to run something which grips like a curling stone on an ice rink because it happens to have 5mm tread!
I was driving bangers round grassy/muddy fields in autotests (where prompting oversteer in fwd is needed to get into the 'garages' and round the slaloms/hairpins tidily) before I cut my teeth in short stage rallies and on track. Not an experience which is easily afforded to many but invaluable all the same.
Not sure I will be able to convince my partner to shore up her experience to the level I'm comfortable with as she intends to get her license this summer. I'll be trying to get her into some Karts at the very least and then perhaps consider further options to build her confidence and knowledge of what to do if she encounters an exceptional circumstnace.
I was driving bangers round grassy/muddy fields in autotests (where prompting oversteer in fwd is needed to get into the 'garages' and round the slaloms/hairpins tidily) before I cut my teeth in short stage rallies and on track. Not an experience which is easily afforded to many but invaluable all the same.
Not sure I will be able to convince my partner to shore up her experience to the level I'm comfortable with as she intends to get her license this summer. I'll be trying to get her into some Karts at the very least and then perhaps consider further options to build her confidence and knowledge of what to do if she encounters an exceptional circumstnace.
Chin up, no harm done apart from a bruised ego.
I crashed my Gti-6 back in thine day into a rail bridge, you can imagine who won that battle although to be fair to the car I was trying to be a massive show off at the time so completely my fault.
I resolved the situation by phoning my mate with a tow truck then I went to the pub and got s
t faced 
Funnily enough my airbags never went off either!
I crashed my Gti-6 back in thine day into a rail bridge, you can imagine who won that battle although to be fair to the car I was trying to be a massive show off at the time so completely my fault.
I resolved the situation by phoning my mate with a tow truck then I went to the pub and got s
t faced Funnily enough my airbags never went off either!
Just stepping in to say that the whole "These things do put their backout thing" is in my experience, Utter tosh,
I have had my GTI-6 for 4 years now, Driven it for 40,000 miles on all roads and weather conditions, Potentially the worst snow i've ever experienced and rain etc.
When i bought it it had and i quote tyres made by "Chinas 4th most popular tyre manufacturer" on the rear
I have had it then deteriate in suspension condition slightly, Fitted with 4 michelins, Then mismatched mid ranges front to rear
Then I have all the wheels and tyres(7" instead of 6.5") and 16'S
The point is i have experienced about every spec you can have on this car with every tyre combination.
I generally drive like a bell*** but this hasnt happened.
Maybe i'm lucky.
However one this i doubt do is lift of on corner exit at 4.5k rpm.
I think if this happens there is an issue with the beam.
I.e unattached arb or something...
I have had my GTI-6 for 4 years now, Driven it for 40,000 miles on all roads and weather conditions, Potentially the worst snow i've ever experienced and rain etc.
When i bought it it had and i quote tyres made by "Chinas 4th most popular tyre manufacturer" on the rear
I have had it then deteriate in suspension condition slightly, Fitted with 4 michelins, Then mismatched mid ranges front to rear
Then I have all the wheels and tyres(7" instead of 6.5") and 16'S
The point is i have experienced about every spec you can have on this car with every tyre combination.
I generally drive like a bell*** but this hasnt happened.
Maybe i'm lucky.
However one this i doubt do is lift of on corner exit at 4.5k rpm.
I think if this happens there is an issue with the beam.
I.e unattached arb or something...
slikrs said:
Fully agree with above - driver training is important and my future kids will be fully versed in advanced techniques prior to venturing into a world where idiots are permitted to drive, vehicle maintenance is likely to be lower priority for many than missing their favourite TV soap opera and it's illegal to run a good tyre at 1mm but legal to run something which grips like a curling stone on an ice rink because it happens to have 5mm tread!
I was driving bangers round grassy/muddy fields in autotests (where prompting oversteer in fwd is needed to get into the 'garages' and round the slaloms/hairpins tidily) before I cut my teeth in short stage rallies and on track. Not an experience which is easily afforded to many but invaluable all the same.
Not sure I will be able to convince my partner to shore up her experience to the level I'm comfortable with as she intends to get her license this summer. I'll be trying to get her into some Karts at the very least and then perhaps consider further options to build her confidence and knowledge of what to do if she encounters an exceptional circumstnace.
Next holiday idea - AMG driving academy or similar held on frozen lakes in Sweden. Not cheap but a great experience. Thankfully I get to spend a lot of time 'hooning' there. The experience I built up is priceless and most people will not have. In my experience, understanding how a FWD / RWD / AWD car behaves on the limit on both low mu and high mu surfaces is invaluable to every day driving, not to mention a lot more fun when used within your comfort zone and in appropriate places. I was driving bangers round grassy/muddy fields in autotests (where prompting oversteer in fwd is needed to get into the 'garages' and round the slaloms/hairpins tidily) before I cut my teeth in short stage rallies and on track. Not an experience which is easily afforded to many but invaluable all the same.
Not sure I will be able to convince my partner to shore up her experience to the level I'm comfortable with as she intends to get her license this summer. I'll be trying to get her into some Karts at the very least and then perhaps consider further options to build her confidence and knowledge of what to do if she encounters an exceptional circumstnace.
I had a Clio 172 for a while and the loose rear end was something I really couldn't get on with. It had good matching Continental tyres on all four corners but it felt like it was trying to kill me every time I braked hard. No understeer ever, no matter what provocation but oversteer on demand and even when not demanded.
I know all the journos love this handling trait, but I really don't.
I know all the journos love this handling trait, but I really don't.
I had my 306 Rallye for three years, using it as my daily driver throughout that time. It will devastate motorcyclists over challenging North Yorks roads, even with a ham-fisted chump like me behind the wheel. I accept that it's very un-Pistonheads but I never even got the back out once.
Now my girlfriend owns it and has used it as her daily driver. She hasn't crashed it either and she's a GIRL.
In summary: most playful and fun FWD car I've ever driven and as rewarding cross-country as a Lotus.
Now my girlfriend owns it and has used it as her daily driver. She hasn't crashed it either and she's a GIRL.
In summary: most playful and fun FWD car I've ever driven and as rewarding cross-country as a Lotus.
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