Why such tall first gears?

[otolith]

Red line? What red line?



(Peak torque @ 6800rpm, peak power @ 7800rpm, max rpm 8000rpm continuous, 8500rpm transient)

[Rude-boy]

It is ensure that ever driver of a diesel golf stalls it at least once during ownership when they try to pull away in second.

[micky g]

My Cerbera had the option gearing, did 62 in 1st, 102 in 2nd, followed by two short gears giving 118 in 3rd, 135 in 4th. These are all speedometer readings at the 'beep' which came in 500 or so rpm before you hit the red. Never found out what it would do in fifth!

[Phateuk]

The last few superminis I've hired on holiday seemed to have really tall low gears, I've spent my life turning off a main road into a side road in second. In these newer cars the car felt like it would stall in second thus requiring a change down to first at say 15-20mph :/

[RichardD]

micky g said:

My Cerbera had the option gearing, did 62 in 1st...

Out of interest if you were in crawling traffic and wanted to just move the car a few feet forward, what rpm would you be dropping/slipping the clutch at ?

[IanCress]

thatdude said:

Anyway, in all seriousness...at idle, with the clutch engaged, what is the speed the car is travelling at?

A car that does 6000rpm at 35mph would be doing 3.5mph at 600rpm, or 5.25mph at 900rpm. A fast walking pace.

[Speedy11]

BritishRacinGrin said:

I'm not sure that saying 'for most cars' and then using an RX-8 for your example is really proving your point, the RX-8 is somewhat of a special case being that it revs to north of 9000RPM and delivers no torque below about 6000. The majority of petrol engines probably have peak torque below 4000RPM.

I just used that as it is an easy graph to read. Would a Jaguar diesel be a better example or an Audi S5?



They still show the same thing.

[matchmaker]

Slidingpillar said:

Tall first gears are nothing new, my 1930 Morgan does 45 if redlined in first.

My 1964 Vitesse 6 would do 35mph in first at the 6000rpm red line. On the other hand you could if you were careful start it off in 4th!

Edited by matchmaker on Monday 11th August 13:28

[eliotrw]

My GTi-6 is even worse, You can get 42 MPH in first, Over 70 in second.

What that means though is that the gearing for 3rd 4th and 5th are real close so you can basically really badly upset new hot hatch owners with it if you remain committed to about 7200rpm.
Somehow it has the ability to say "bye bye" to the below when you enter 3rd
206 GTI180
The new shape Fiesta ST
The old Fiesta basically goes backwards at this point
A Corsa VXR

Its annoying as hell in town though, Especially with a lightened flywheel and the worlds stiffest clutch(TM)

[neil1jnr]

eliotrw said:

My GTi-6 is even worse, You can get 42 MPH in first, Over 70 in second.

What that means though is that the gearing for 3rd 4th and 5th are real close so you can basically really badly upset new hot hatch owners with it if you remain committed to about 7200rpm.
Somehow it has the ability to say "bye bye" to the below when you enter 3rd
206 GTI180
The new shape Fiesta ST
The old Fiesta basically goes backwards at this point
A Corsa VXR

Its annoying as hell in town though, Especially with a lightened flywheel and the worlds stiffest clutch(TM)

Sorry mate but I completely disagree. The old Fiesta ST yes, the new one... not a hope.

I can't see a 306 gti saying 'bye bye' to a corsa vxr either. Regardless of ratios, the 306 is heavier, and has less power and torque at any part of the rev range than a Fiesta ST. It is slightly lighter than the VXR but I'd put money on the Corsa being quicker.

[PaulG40]

My 306 hdi does my head in when your stuck in stop start crawling traffic, thos annoying speeds that are just inbetween your ideal gear change speeds. First is too high revving and 2nd too low. Add a heavy clutch pedal to the mix and it becomes an annoyance.
Our other 107 and soon to arrive new Aygo have a longer 1st that allows you to stay in first at those speeds, alleviating clutch leg ache.

[thebigmacmoomin]

Ive always complained that the 1st & 2nd in my Mondeo ST TDCi were too short.

[micky g]

RichardD said:

micky g said:

My Cerbera had the option gearing, did 62 in 1st...

Out of interest if you were in crawling traffic and wanted to just move the car a few feet forward, what rpm would you be dropping/slipping the clutch at ?

To be honest I can't remember but it was easy to stall. I've not driven one with the standard box so can't say if it was any different in that respect. The gears didn't feel too long and it was fun changing down to 2nd at 60+ mph to accelerate... I remember as a kid reading the old 'Top Trump' cards, one of them giving the performance of a Monterverdi Hai that went through 60 in 1st and 100 in 2nd, thinking I'd love a car that could do that!

[RichardD]

micky g said:

To be honest I can't remember but it was easy to stall. I've not driven one with the standard box so can't say if it was any different in that respect. The gears didn't feel too long and it was fun changing down to 2nd at 60+ mph to accelerate... I remember as a kid reading the old 'Top Trump' cards, one of them giving the performance of a Monterverdi Hai that went through 60 in 1st and 100 in 2nd, thinking I'd love a car that could do that!

Wouldn't it (compared to the RV8 models) have a lightish flywheel, so that could have been a big factor there in being easy to stall?

There is definitely a satisfaction in having sufficient grunt (with enough of a smooth powerband) to be able to have gearing which is sort of like not having a first gear anymore (taking a typical 1st gear for 30-40mph and 2nd for 60) because there is plenty in 2nd ....

[AgentZ]

neil1jnr said:

Sorry mate but I completely disagree. The old Fiesta ST yes, the new one... not a hope.

I can't see a 306 gti saying 'bye bye' to a corsa vxr either. Regardless of ratios, the 306 is heavier, and has less power and torque at any part of the rev range than a Fiesta ST. It is slightly lighter than the VXR but I'd put money on the Corsa being quicker.

I know when I owned mine during the commute I got lazy/took advantage of the torque leaving it in fourth 90% of the time. I'm guessing most owners do the same.

30-70 in fourth in the ST is slightly slower (8.2) than the GTi-6 is going through the gears full bore (7.4). The ST is seconds quicker in most in-gear increments when driven to its potential.

[andy_s]

otolith said:

Red line? What red line?

That's what the change up light is for

[otolith]

[Baryonyx]

micky g said:

My Cerbera had the option gearing, did 62 in 1st, 102 in 2nd, followed by two short gears giving 118 in 3rd, 135 in 4th. These are all speedometer readings at the 'beep' which came in 500 or so rpm before you hit the red. Never found out what it would do in fifth!

What is the logic behind this gearing?

[otolith]

Baryonyx said:

What is the logic behind this gearing?

No point in running a shorter gear if you would be traction limited?

[TheInternet]

Ozzie Osmond said:

So let's hear who, in what car, and where, is taking their car to the red-line in first gear...

If you live in the middle of the city like I do then it's a long way to find even a 40 mph limit, so having a car that redlines at 38mph in first means you never have to change gear. It's 50% of the automatic experience with 0% of the cost.