RE: PistonHeads - hypocrisy matters: PH Blog
Discussion
Doesn't the R price finish where the S3 starts? Fully spec'd you are comparing a £40k car with a £30k car which, given the similarities, means either the Golf is missing something or the Audi has a ridiculous premium for the badge.
I am not a fan of either car by a long way but they are both very capable machines if not very dull. I struggled to find the exhaust note on the S3 I tested before I went for the Jag inspiring in anyway. It sounded fake, the woeful sound on gear change was just embarrassing and the handling was very un exciting. I assume the Golf is similar in most ways. My daily drive at the time was my Fiat 20VT and although it felt old (and slow) after the test it certainly made me realise what characterful and fun add to the enjoyment of driving.
I am not a fan of either car by a long way but they are both very capable machines if not very dull. I struggled to find the exhaust note on the S3 I tested before I went for the Jag inspiring in anyway. It sounded fake, the woeful sound on gear change was just embarrassing and the handling was very un exciting. I assume the Golf is similar in most ways. My daily drive at the time was my Fiat 20VT and although it felt old (and slow) after the test it certainly made me realise what characterful and fun add to the enjoyment of driving.
I have had a manual M135i 5dr for the last three and half years. Have been recently looking at changing and so I tried the S3 Sportback. I must confess it was quite a limited drive around the 'burbs and the A4. But it was enough to deduce that the example I drove, which was on the normal 18" alloys and without Audi's expensive magnetic dampers, had a noticeably stiffer ride than my car. Definitely less forgiving over speed-humps and scarred surfaces, but on the flip side it felt planted and stable. Also goes like the clappers though – the one I tried had the DSG box and if it's slower than the M135i, then it certainly doesn't feel like it. In fact it felt altogether a bit more urgent than the M135i, which felt a rather more grown-up and relaxed car by comparison. Part of that is the gearbox of course but it is definitely quick. It also makes a half-decently sporty noise but I didn't care much for the loud braap/crack it gives on upshifts under full power – that just sounded a bit juvenile if I'm honest (clearly I am getting old).
That could be fixed by spending a small fortune on an RS3 I suppose but what was most interesting, given that Audis have frequently majored on static appeal and interior design/quality, and what Dan says about the cabin (which an RS3 wouldn't fix), was the decided lack of "want one" factor and the interior which I really didn't like very much. I mean, the interior was well designed and yes beautifully made and had clever touches like the retracting nav screen, but I just didn't much like it. It was too Spartan and uninviting-looking, and almost a bit low rent-looking even if it wasn't at all cheap-feeling. It sounds odd but it didn't look particularly grown-up or particularly like it belonged in what is a relatively expensive car. Not at all what I expected from having seen photos and from Audi's general reputation. And then from the outside it really just looks like an A3 with four exhausts and some not especially attractive wheels. I'm all for Q-ness but this was just a trifle too dull, especially in recession-white paintwork.
Not been moved to try the R after that experience.
That could be fixed by spending a small fortune on an RS3 I suppose but what was most interesting, given that Audis have frequently majored on static appeal and interior design/quality, and what Dan says about the cabin (which an RS3 wouldn't fix), was the decided lack of "want one" factor and the interior which I really didn't like very much. I mean, the interior was well designed and yes beautifully made and had clever touches like the retracting nav screen, but I just didn't much like it. It was too Spartan and uninviting-looking, and almost a bit low rent-looking even if it wasn't at all cheap-feeling. It sounds odd but it didn't look particularly grown-up or particularly like it belonged in what is a relatively expensive car. Not at all what I expected from having seen photos and from Audi's general reputation. And then from the outside it really just looks like an A3 with four exhausts and some not especially attractive wheels. I'm all for Q-ness but this was just a trifle too dull, especially in recession-white paintwork.
Not been moved to try the R after that experience.
swisstoni said:
I can't help with the relative merits of each car but it's certainly possible to not give a toss about either of them.
I agree. I used to quite like Volkswagens - the first car I ever drove was a MkII Jetta. I remember being impressed with the Passat I drove, it being very accomplished and competent. I also quite enjoyed a go in the Mk5 GTi, which was great fun and felt very sorted.Drove a GTD DSG a while back. I found it face-chewingly boring. I found it so boring I got out of it depressed. I'm guessing the R is a bit like that, just faster.
Its all about brand!
Why buy one loaf of white bread over another? Why buy one brand of water over another? They both do exactly the same thing, both taste the same, both end up coming out the other end the same.
We all know what VW have been up to recently and Audi have managed to sufficiently distance themselves from the fallout far enough, that I dare say it hasn't effected brand perception (or sales) for them one iota.
This is just a small example of corporate brand management and customer loyalty. I was a die hard VW follower for years, owning a couple along the way. It wasn't until I bought my first Audi and began following the brand, that I could see the difference in the experience - sealed even more so when I was invited on an experience day with Audi at Millbrook. They really knew how to look after everyone that was there and didn't try to sell to anyone, you were just handed the keys to whatever S or RS model you fancied taking for a spin - the cars sold themselves, the customer experience team sold the brand.
VAG distinguish their brands amazingly well, I believe they're the best in the world at doing so (probably because they own most of the popular cars the public drive!!), but that can make brand differentiation even harder to manage.
All this translates to public perception too - so, who's is the Morrisons white or Kingsmill in the morning? (crude analogy but you get the picture).
Why buy one loaf of white bread over another? Why buy one brand of water over another? They both do exactly the same thing, both taste the same, both end up coming out the other end the same.
We all know what VW have been up to recently and Audi have managed to sufficiently distance themselves from the fallout far enough, that I dare say it hasn't effected brand perception (or sales) for them one iota.
This is just a small example of corporate brand management and customer loyalty. I was a die hard VW follower for years, owning a couple along the way. It wasn't until I bought my first Audi and began following the brand, that I could see the difference in the experience - sealed even more so when I was invited on an experience day with Audi at Millbrook. They really knew how to look after everyone that was there and didn't try to sell to anyone, you were just handed the keys to whatever S or RS model you fancied taking for a spin - the cars sold themselves, the customer experience team sold the brand.
VAG distinguish their brands amazingly well, I believe they're the best in the world at doing so (probably because they own most of the popular cars the public drive!!), but that can make brand differentiation even harder to manage.
All this translates to public perception too - so, who's is the Morrisons white or Kingsmill in the morning? (crude analogy but you get the picture).
PhantomPH said:
WokkaWokka said:
That looks absolutely lovely mate. I think I read about your car on an Audi forum when we were all getting them. I didn't consider the R, I am happy to admit I am a bit of a badge snob although I have owned VW's in the past and I certainly wouldn't say no to one in the future.
I think the S3 is great I drive 25K a year and its a great car, goes like stink and there could be more unleashed from the engine if you wanted to. I've taken it to the alps and it was great all the way, very comfortable, unfortunately our roads in England are not so good!
I was thinking of trading up to a Cayman S but the company car tax is absolutely ridiculous so for now (Ignore my previous comment) I am considering the Golf GTE for when I make the change (Not menopause....or maybe it is.)
Thanks mate. Interestingly enough, I have just been looking at Porsches as well! And this leads me to another bit of love for the S3 - so far I am struggling to justify the extra expense vs increased utility (economist speak there).I think the S3 is great I drive 25K a year and its a great car, goes like stink and there could be more unleashed from the engine if you wanted to. I've taken it to the alps and it was great all the way, very comfortable, unfortunately our roads in England are not so good!
I was thinking of trading up to a Cayman S but the company car tax is absolutely ridiculous so for now (Ignore my previous comment) I am considering the Golf GTE for when I make the change (Not menopause....or maybe it is.)
The plain English version is that my wife (as the voice of reason) poses questions like, "How much faster do you need to go on the way to work?! Is it really worth all that extra money just to be stuck behind a queue of traffic in a Porsche instead of your Audi?". Fair points. I know this is Pistonheads where I have to pretend I live in my car and track it every day and can drive like Senna crossed with McRae, but the reality is that my commute is still a boring drive with progress largely dictated to by the 6 ditherers up ahead and weekends feature family and daughters singing along to Capital FM. I'm struggling to justify extra expense on the rare occasions when I can go for it.
Maybe I am just getting old. DAMN YOU ADVANCING YEARS!!!
A bit off topic but I noticed in the back of the EVO mag that the Leon Cupra Sub 8 is faster found the track than both the R and the S3!
Is it because the R and S3 are awd that people think they are faster (or some would lead you to believe that they are the fastest) point to point?
I am not a fan of either TBH but I am half considering a R estate as an all weather family car but i suppose part of that is down to value for money.
Is it because the R and S3 are awd that people think they are faster (or some would lead you to believe that they are the fastest) point to point?
I am not a fan of either TBH but I am half considering a R estate as an all weather family car but i suppose part of that is down to value for money.
CS400 said:
A bit off topic but I noticed in the back of the EVO mag that the Leon Cupra Sub 8 is faster found the track than both the R and the S3!
Is it because the R and S3 are awd that people think they are faster (or some would lead you to believe that they are the fastest) point to point?
I am not a fan of either TBH but I am half considering a R estate as an all weather family car but i suppose part of that is down to value for money.
Surely "track" and "point to point" (which is a problematic idea anyway) are quite different?Is it because the R and S3 are awd that people think they are faster (or some would lead you to believe that they are the fastest) point to point?
I am not a fan of either TBH but I am half considering a R estate as an all weather family car but i suppose part of that is down to value for money.
For me, part of the problem with the reporting of all of these cars is the insistence on judging them by how they behave on track, where 99.999% of them will never go.
I have had a BMW M135i for the last 3 years and took out an S3 and didn't like it at all. Took out a Porsche Cayman 2.7 too and was hugely underwhelmed.
Ended up ordering a Golf R and have gone for a 1 year deal in it until my M2 is built.
I felt the S3 a bit crashy, the interior was finished beautifully but seems to be less room in the back seats.
From all these hyper or mega hatches the one that still put the biggest grin on my face was the clio 182!
Hopefully Renault sort themselves out and return to form on the clio, or stick a 2.0 into the new Twingo, RWD could see that being awesome fun!
I don't think its badge snobbery, its down to what each individual likes and enjoys, for me its not the nicer leather or comfiest seats its what plasters a big grin across my face.
Ended up ordering a Golf R and have gone for a 1 year deal in it until my M2 is built.
I felt the S3 a bit crashy, the interior was finished beautifully but seems to be less room in the back seats.
From all these hyper or mega hatches the one that still put the biggest grin on my face was the clio 182!
Hopefully Renault sort themselves out and return to form on the clio, or stick a 2.0 into the new Twingo, RWD could see that being awesome fun!
I don't think its badge snobbery, its down to what each individual likes and enjoys, for me its not the nicer leather or comfiest seats its what plasters a big grin across my face.
Tuvra said:
MK1RS Bruce said:
FRS / megane RS / Leon / octavia are the same or better cars for less money. So really Golf R owners are the guilty ones of hypocrisy.
Yeah right 
The FRS maybe, but thats a new car versus a car that is 2-3 year old already, plus the FRS still hasn't been launched....
A VW golf is a bit like ready salted crisps, they aren't bad, they don't offend anyone, the fill the minimum required brief to be a crisp but they are boring and generic.
I've never liked golfs, I'll never own a golf but I would consider an S3 (although I'd dread the day an RS3 with an infinitely more characterful engine pulls up to me at the lights!). It's not badge snobbery it's a personal and completely subjective dislike for golfs that to me epitomises blandness and playing things safe, don't get me wrong, the S3 is hardly out there, nor is most of the Audi Range!
So its for that point and the fact I much prefer the interior of the Audi that I don't think it's hypocritical to like one and not the other.
A like/love of a car is emotive on so many ways in addition to mechanicals.
So its for that point and the fact I much prefer the interior of the Audi that I don't think it's hypocritical to like one and not the other.
A like/love of a car is emotive on so many ways in addition to mechanicals.
Hot hatches used to mean pin sharp steering with decent enough pace. But now hot hatches must be extremely fast above all else, with lots of premium kit, a nice badge and interior. In other words they must be fully competent, full spec family cars. Todays "ultimate hatch" really means "ultimate family car".
If sharp steering and sheer fun were all that mattered things like the 106GTI or Clio Cup variants would be seen as "ultimate hatches". But fun is no longer the benchmark. BHP is.
If sharp steering and sheer fun were all that mattered things like the 106GTI or Clio Cup variants would be seen as "ultimate hatches". But fun is no longer the benchmark. BHP is.
k-ink said:
Hot hatches used to mean pin sharp steering with decent enough pace. But now hot hatches must be extremely fast above all else, with lots of premium kit, a nice badge and interior. In other words they must be fully competent, full spec family cars. Todays "ultimate hatch" really means "ultimate family car".
If sharp steering and sheer fun were all that mattered things like the 106GTI or Clio Cup variants would be seen as "ultimate hatches". But fun is no longer the benchmark. BHP is.
Exactly. BHP used to be synonymous with the fun or challenge of a car. But now, with blanket ESP, ABS, TCS, electronic throttles, DSG and torque vectoring, driving one of these cars requires zero skill and presents zero challenge. Where's the fun in that? BHP is meaningless if it's only the computer that's in charge of it.If sharp steering and sheer fun were all that mattered things like the 106GTI or Clio Cup variants would be seen as "ultimate hatches". But fun is no longer the benchmark. BHP is.
I'm still very much loving my Golf R, I've got APR stage 1 running about 380hp / 380lb/ft which is hilarious and I turned the stupid soundaktor thing off because it was just annoying. I also ditched the Bridgestones for a set of Pilot Supersports and the thing is just a weapon pure and simple. I bought my wife a 997 Carrera GTS and this thing wipes the floor with it. I'm a big fan, and it's still just a Golf so it's very much a Q car...
I have no love for neither, But I can appreciate they are very good appliances.
The Golf R would at least have to be on those optional pretoria wheels for me, The price would be enough to split difference personally considering the platform similarities and disregarding the badge on the front grill which is negligible when talking about the cars, as cars in my personal opinion.
The Golf R would at least have to be on those optional pretoria wheels for me, The price would be enough to split difference personally considering the platform similarities and disregarding the badge on the front grill which is negligible when talking about the cars, as cars in my personal opinion.
As I own one I get why some may think the R dull, like some may think a 911 Turbo or a GTR is dull, having owned a 997.1 Turbo and driven a GTR lots I can definitely say that they arent! I came to the R from GTI mk 5 and initially missed the snappy, light feel of that lovely thing but the R has grown to be, for me at least, an exceptional cover all bases car. Fast, discreet, comfortable, cheap to run, lots of kit and great when in the mood for a hoon. The Audi just doesnt appeal atall (few of them do)..but each to their own. The new RS looks really interesting, my concern is that it wouldnt deal with the 70% commuting crawl and 30% fun time, that typifies my car use,nearly as well as the R.
oilslurper said:
The new RS looks really interesting, my concern is that it wouldnt deal with the 70% commuting crawl and 30% fun time, that typifies my car use,nearly as well as the R.
Has anyone road tested a RS in the UK?I have a suspicion the ride/damping won't touch a Golf R. Which is the thing that impresses me most.
PhantomPH said:
WokkaWokka said:
That looks absolutely lovely mate. I think I read about your car on an Audi forum when we were all getting them. I didn't consider the R, I am happy to admit I am a bit of a badge snob although I have owned VW's in the past and I certainly wouldn't say no to one in the future.
I think the S3 is great I drive 25K a year and its a great car, goes like stink and there could be more unleashed from the engine if you wanted to. I've taken it to the alps and it was great all the way, very comfortable, unfortunately our roads in England are not so good!
I was thinking of trading up to a Cayman S but the company car tax is absolutely ridiculous so for now (Ignore my previous comment) I am considering the Golf GTE for when I make the change (Not menopause....or maybe it is.)
Thanks mate. Interestingly enough, I have just been looking at Porsches as well! And this leads me to another bit of love for the S3 - so far I am struggling to justify the extra expense vs increased utility (economist speak there).I think the S3 is great I drive 25K a year and its a great car, goes like stink and there could be more unleashed from the engine if you wanted to. I've taken it to the alps and it was great all the way, very comfortable, unfortunately our roads in England are not so good!
I was thinking of trading up to a Cayman S but the company car tax is absolutely ridiculous so for now (Ignore my previous comment) I am considering the Golf GTE for when I make the change (Not menopause....or maybe it is.)
The plain English version is that my wife (as the voice of reason) poses questions like, "How much faster do you need to go on the way to work?! Is it really worth all that extra money just to be stuck behind a queue of traffic in a Porsche instead of your Audi?". Fair points. I know this is Pistonheads where I have to pretend I live in my car and track it every day and can drive like Senna crossed with McRae, but the reality is that my commute is still a boring drive with progress largely dictated to by the 6 ditherers up ahead and weekends feature family and daughters singing along to Capital FM. I'm struggling to justify extra expense on the rare occasions when I can go for it.
Maybe I am just getting old. DAMN YOU ADVANCING YEARS!!!
Thats at least one for the pro list
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