RE: British-built track specials: Market Watch
Discussion
Chaps, are we on "pistonheads" or "affordable motoring monthly"? Thank goodness there is something out there for every performance car enthusiast, regardless of one's budget. Let's all take pleasure in our collective passion - the thrill of owning and driving, be that on local roads, European trips or track days. Whether you have a Porsche or a Peugeot, a Ferrari or a Fiat, a Kit Car or a Supercar. Enjoy what you have and respect others' choices. As a newcomer to PH is saddens me to see that a significant number of members are obsessed with residual values, the cost of ownership or "because I don't own one it must be crap / the other guy is an idiot". Too much negativity here. We have enough of it elsewhere. Life's too short. I for one couldn't be happier that track day specials exist. Not for everyone granted, but if they make a few of us happy why on earth criticise? Rant over!
It's the options that people aren't taking onto account. Was looking at a dealers brand new Exige S, and they want the best part of £70k for it ie about £12-13k over 'list' pre options. They are £45-50k 2 years on.
Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
Robert-nszl1 said:
Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
Of course not, but it's one thing kidding yourself (and possibly your other half), quite another to expect everyone else to be stupid enough to believe you! 
If you want to spaff £50K on a toy, then good for you and I hope you enjoy it, but let's not pretend there's a sound financial rationale behind it, eh?
a nice kitchen costs 50k and might last quite a few years, but don't be surprised when the next owner rips it out and starts again. Of course, that depreciation is hidden within the housing bubble.
I'm reliably told, by she who knows, that good handbags last a lifetime. I still find it odd that they get their own little chair in restaurants.
I only need a Dacia. But i'll waste my money happily on cars thank you.
I'm reliably told, by she who knows, that good handbags last a lifetime. I still find it odd that they get their own little chair in restaurants.
I only need a Dacia. But i'll waste my money happily on cars thank you.
Robert-nszl1 said:
It's the options that people aren't taking onto account. Was looking at a dealers brand new Exige S, and they want the best part of £70k for it ie about £12-13k over 'list' pre options. They are £45-50k 2 years on.
Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
Just bought a VX220 Turbo - maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think I'll lose anything on it.Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
Equus said:
charltjr said:
That's a rather misleading comparison you're using, as I'm sure you know 
No it's not. It's a simple cost per mile. It's the real cost of actually using the car - nothing misleading about it.If you were masochistic enough to use the car at 'normal' mileages, you'd find it even worse - it would be literally worthless, as nobody in their right mind would dream of buying a Caterham with a 6-figure mileage (although my experience, having run one as a genuine all-year-round daily driver when I was younger, is that it would have corroded away to nothing long before then, anyway).
"Take almost any other car at the same price point, do a similar mileage in it and see how the depreciation per mile number looks in comparison."
If you're going to use cost per mile as a metric for comparisons you have to apply the same the same conditions to the cars you're comparing, or the comparison is invalid.
Actus Reus said:
Just bought a VX220 Turbo - maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think I'll lose anything on it.
It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
Yes but it's not a young car, and if you drive it hard it will get through tyres etc etc and before that you will sort the 'niggles' or worse. And after you have insured it and taxed it, you find yourself strangely lighter in pocket.....but hey you won't actually lose anything.....It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
Equus said:
Actually, it isn't, you know. It's £0.50 per mile in depreciation alone (and that's on a second-hand car that has done most of its depreciation: we're talking about the people who buy these cars new, here).
There are family hatchbacks out there that have been assessed to give running costs of £0.28 per mile, all-in (depreciation, fuel, maintenance, insurance, tax).
The HMRC reckons it shouldn't be costing you more than £0.45 per mile, all in, and that any more constitutes either:
a) idiocy or;
b) tax fraud
But keep on deluding yourself, if you like...
Normal Math and depreciation do not apply to 7's a New 1800 Road sport in 2000 was around £18K (roughly you can correct me if you wish) Today this example is being offerd for £14,995 http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c... Now given your statement and if its 'True' which it isn't, the car with a millage of 28,000 miles should cost £14,000 less in other words the sale value would be £4,000There are family hatchbacks out there that have been assessed to give running costs of £0.28 per mile, all-in (depreciation, fuel, maintenance, insurance, tax).
The HMRC reckons it shouldn't be costing you more than £0.45 per mile, all in, and that any more constitutes either:
a) idiocy or;
b) tax fraud
But keep on deluding yourself, if you like...
Equus said:
Of course not, but it's one thing kidding yourself (and possibly your other half), quite another to expect everyone else to be stupid enough to believe you!
If you want to spaff £50K on a toy, then good for you and I hope you enjoy it, but let's not pretend there's a sound financial rationale behind it, eh?
Did you gloss over the post regarding the sale of the Atoms? If you want to spaff £50K on a toy, then good for you and I hope you enjoy it, but let's not pretend there's a sound financial rationale behind it, eh?
I think your posts are showing what this is really about for you to be honest.
big_rob_sydney said:
What is the reason for the trackday though?
Several things:-- "getting it out of your system", given how crowded / enforced our roads are becoming
- experience your car at/just-over the limits in a safe environment
- general improvement in your car control / understanding of the car's feedback / behaviour
- learning a circuit if you're an amateur racer
- 'fun'
- lot cheaper than a season's racing*
* Assuming you don't go down the whole 'trackday toy' route, and even then there's less chance of damage to bodywork or oily bits on a trackday.
baronbennyt said:
Chaps, are we on "pistonheads" or "affordable motoring monthly"? Thank goodness there is something out there for every performance car enthusiast, regardless of one's budget. Let's all take pleasure in our collective passion - the thrill of owning and driving, be that on local roads, European trips or track days. Whether you have a Porsche or a Peugeot, a Ferrari or a Fiat, a Kit Car or a Supercar. Enjoy what you have and respect others' choices. As a newcomer to PH is saddens me to see that a significant number of members are obsessed with residual values, the cost of ownership or "because I don't own one it must be crap / the other guy is an idiot". Too much negativity here. We have enough of it elsewhere. Life's too short. I for one couldn't be happier that track day specials exist. Not for everyone granted, but if they make a few of us happy why on earth criticise? Rant over!
Exactly, one wouldn't approach an E-Type owner and say 'Well, that's a bit of a bloody exuberance, my Golf R only costs me £230 a month'. But thankfully there are more that think like this (above) than those who do not.
corozin said:
Re the price of the BAC, the amusing thing about all of this is that a few years ago I saw a Mosler GT race car on sale for £120,000. My point is that if you've got that much money for a track toy why wouldn't you just go and buy a real racing car? You'll be trailering it anyway.
There's a video on Evo where a Mono destroys the lap time of a P1 GTR. Pretty legit (street legal) racing car I'd say.Actus Reus said:
Robert-nszl1 said:
It's the options that people aren't taking onto account. Was looking at a dealers brand new Exige S, and they want the best part of £70k for it ie about £12-13k over 'list' pre options. They are £45-50k 2 years on.
Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
Just bought a VX220 Turbo - maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think I'll lose anything on it.Sheds aside, has anyone on here ever bought a car without kidding themselves about depreciation/ running costs?!
It's also British built, quick and suitable for the track. What do I win?
After 2 years ownership I'm £1500 up on mine for sale value but i've spend about £2000 on it. Thats a victory in my book.
yonex said:
Did you gloss over the post regarding the sale of the Atoms?
You mean the one that said:BigBen said:
Both were second hand examples, I suspect if new the result would have been quite different, especially as options don't seem to retain value that well.
No, I didn't gloss over it, I just didn't think it necessary to comment on a post that broadly agreed with me. Toaster said:
Normal Math and depreciation do not apply to 7's a New 1800 Road sport in 2000 was around £18K (roughly you can correct me if you wish) Today this example is being offered for £14,995
Normal math and depreciation don't apply to older cars, certainly. It's called inflation.
In the year I was born a Hillman Imp cost £717. Today a good one will cost you around £6,000. It doesn't mean they were a gilt-edge investment, it merely means that if you keep any car long enough and barely drive it, inflation will eventually make it look as though it hasn't lost much.
Even disregarding the cost of options, that Caterham has lost half its value, in real terms, in its 28,000 miles. About the same as you'd expect from any normal hatchback, over the same mileage (except that the normal car would do that mileage in a couple of years).
Honestly, the level of self-delusion going on around here is comical!
Normal math and depreciation don't apply to older cars, certainly. It's called inflation.
In the year I was born a Hillman Imp cost £717. Today a good one will cost you around £6,000. It doesn't mean they were a gilt-edge investment, it merely means that if you keep any car long enough and barely drive it, inflation will eventually make it look as though it hasn't lost much.
Even disregarding the cost of options, that Caterham has lost half its value, in real terms, in its 28,000 miles. About the same as you'd expect from any normal hatchback, over the same mileage (except that the normal car would do that mileage in a couple of years).
Honestly, the level of self-delusion going on around here is comical!
Equus said:
No, I didn't gloss over it, I just didn't think it necessary to comment on a post that broadly agreed with me.
BigBen said:
I sold one Ariel after about 5 years and about 15,000 miles for about £250 less than I paid for it (I did get in pre-Clarkson on this one so perhaps a distortion) nevertheless the 'phone rang off the hook so I suspect I could have even taken a profit.
The second I sold for what I paid after 2 years.
Net loss on the first one £50 a year, net loss on the second, zero. The second I sold for what I paid after 2 years.
Equus said:
Honestly, the level of self-delusion going on around here is comical!
Quite.yonex said:
Net loss on the first one £50 a year, net loss on the second, zero.
Both of which were already second-hand. You're really not getting it, are you?I sold an Elan Sprint about 4 years ago at a profit of £7,500 on 4 years ownership (and thought I did well - the car would now have been worth north of £40K against the £12.5K I paid for it, had I hung on to it).
I also sold a Westfield at about the same time for a similar profit on 3 years ownership.
I'm not stupid enough to think that they'd have been equally good investments had I bought them both new - I just happened to hit the right part of their appreciation curves in a rising market for classics.
The buyer of the Westfield spent a LOT of money on it - major engine upgrades, bodywork, etc. - and is now struggling to shift it at a value that represents a significant loss for him.
Actually, in the current bubble, the Elan is running ahead of its index linked value (about £31,500 on its original price of £2,466 in 1972), so if you forget about the cost of its full bare-fibreglass restoration before I bought it, you could pretend that it has gained value since it was first built. But you'd only be pretending.
nickfrog said:
why do you care so much about other people's money or the way they spend it /
I don't. As I've already said, if they want to spaff £50K on a toy, that's cool, If they want to delude themselves that it is a good 'investment' and it makes them feel better, that's cool too.
When they come on a public forum trying to persuade others that it makes financial sense, it needs challenging, otherwise some poor sap who doesn't understand basic maths might actually believe them.
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