RE: Honda claims new Civic Type R Nurburgring record
Discussion
ash reynolds said:
Well there is something uglier...
Ring times are getting tedious, seconds shaved off over nearly 13 miles in the hands of a pro driver is going to make what difference exactly to the typical buyer? Willy waving among the manufacturers is what it is. As a development location great, as a marketing USP it's almost meaningless.
Are you seriously questioning why manufactures compete in terms of lap times? A marketing USP...... its their halo performance hatch, it matters how fast they are, especially if they are beating their competitors.Ring times are getting tedious, seconds shaved off over nearly 13 miles in the hands of a pro driver is going to make what difference exactly to the typical buyer? Willy waving among the manufacturers is what it is. As a development location great, as a marketing USP it's almost meaningless.
Why so many ridiculous statements today.
Catatafish said:
What's the deal with nurburgring record attempts? Do they stop as soon as the class record is broken or do they go to the extreme of what the car can do?
If it's the first then it's more a measure of how mental the driver is. I can't imagine the second is possible without a few cataclysmic offs to gauge where the extreme performance is possible.
I think the reality is that they tweak the car until it beats the current record. The most you'll find as a driver between being at 98% vs 110% is probably a couple of seconds. For example.....really, really on it, is flat in a 400bhp plus car through the bottom of Fuchsrohre. You'll probably gain a tenth or two doing that, but the likelihood of having a monumental accident probably goes up by 1000%. Having seen the laptimes of a wide range of guys at the 'Ring (from people who have done 15,000 laps, to people who have done 500), there's rarely more than a couple of seconds difference...If it's the first then it's more a measure of how mental the driver is. I can't imagine the second is possible without a few cataclysmic offs to gauge where the extreme performance is possible.
Durzel said:
Indeed.
I can see why they do it to be honest. It's a boon for marketing.
^^This^^I can see why they do it to be honest. It's a boon for marketing.
Halo models sell base models (view the monumental rise in s-line, m sport, amg line repmobiles) and a Ring lap record gets you all over the motoring press \ websites and promotes interest in the car \ brand.
As stated, marketing team job jobbed. No matter what your opinion is on it's looks, it's going to be all over the motoring press until the next FWD comes along and breaks the record. The cycle continues.
T1b
Are Honda and the like doing this to prove how fast their cars are? I would suspect that they are. I just watched a few seconds of this and have decided it it total nonsense. If this was an athletic sport the times would be invalid in my opinion. First there is not traffic on the circuit unlike the real world. The car seems to be equipped with a roll cage thus allowing the drive to push the car to the limits of his driving capability. If he crashes he has a chance of living and zero chance of killing many others as there is no one else around. This is like allowing the athlete to take performance enhancing drugs just to see how fast they can run/perform etc but fundamentally it is invalid as it would not be a time that reflects the capabilities of the human being. A clear track, roll cage greatly enhances the capability of the driver and thus lends to a quick time. Interesting experiment but total nonsense in reality.
RacerMike said:
ash reynolds said:
Ring times are getting tedious, seconds shaved off over nearly 13 miles in the hands of a pro driver is going to make what difference exactly to the typical buyer? Willy waving among the manufacturers is what it is. As a development location great, as a marketing USP it's almost meaningless.
Well...and totally impossible to achieve in a production car that you can buy in a lot of cases.....however that doesn't stop the keyboard warriors saying they're 'dissappointed' that a car 'only' does an 8min6sec lap without any appreciation for just how incredibly fast that is...I appreciate exactly how fast 8:06 full lap is. Especially in something like a standard Focus RS.
In the passenger seat, anything less than 8:30 BTG feels like you are flying, so 8:06 full lap would feel totally b4lls out mad.
Less than that? EVEN more so.
I've been onboard an 8min (second either side) BTG and we were packing heat... I've driven 8:12 BTG on Mich PS2 and again, it felt like we were really not hanging around at all.
RW
Comment that applies to all manufacturers who 'optimise' their cars to maximise Nurburgring lap times - unless you have the balls to use actual production vehicles, in specs that we can actually buy in showrooms (standard / factory options only), then your times are just indicative. All they really do is unlock the potential of vehicles that by necessity / common sense have to be compromised, if only in small ways, for proper road use.
DM525i said:
Are Honda and the like doing this to prove how fast their cars are? I would suspect that they are. I just watched a few seconds of this and have decided it it total nonsense. If this was an athletic sport the times would be invalid in my opinion. First there is not traffic on the circuit unlike the real world. The car seems to be equipped with a roll cage thus allowing the drive to push the car to the limits of his driving capability. If he crashes he has a chance of living and zero chance of killing many others as there is no one else around. This is like allowing the athlete to take performance enhancing drugs just to see how fast they can run/perform etc but fundamentally it is invalid as it would not be a time that reflects the capabilities of the human being. A clear track, roll cage greatly enhances the capability of the driver and thus lends to a quick time. Interesting experiment but total nonsense in reality.
Nonsense, cage or no cage, I'd still give it 100% at a track day. You have to assume you won't have an accident!Honda should just offer this spec as an option to shut down the is/isn't a production version. Just make it expensive, limited number, and "dealer" fit so not that many people buy it. Fitting better tyres, a role cage, and removing bits of the interior isn't that hard.
Only reason I can see not to is that there is more going on with the Type R for this lap than is making it to production.
Only reason I can see not to is that there is more going on with the Type R for this lap than is making it to production.
Joeguard1990 said:
Nonsense, cage or no cage, I'd still give it 100% at a track day. You have to assume you won't have an accident!
Erm, remind me never to passenger anywhere with you!Would rather be tooled up for one than not if I were going at 100%. You're only a tyre or brake failure, a slight misjudgement from you or another track user, an unexpected change in surface grip or momentary lapse away from a high speed meeting with the scenary. I don't assume these events are going to happen and more than they aren't, however at 100% commitment you're increasing the odds significantly.
Tell me you'd go 100% on track in a 1960s Mini and drive assuming you won't have an accident!
DM525i said:
If this was an athletic sport the times would be invalid in my opinion. First there is not traffic on the circuit unlike the real world.
Isn't it obvious that "traffic", rather than providing an equal comparison, does precisely the opposite? Because it tends to be unpredictable, meaning that - especially on a circuit that is narrow and highly technical - it could easily make ten seconds difference to a laptime. Of course at the other extreme, you could slipstream a Dodge Viper to get around quicker in a Transit van.tankplanker said:
Honda should just offer this spec as an option to shut down the is/isn't a production version. Just make it expensive, limited number, and "dealer" fit so not that many people buy it. Fitting better tyres, a role cage, and removing bits of the interior isn't that hard.
Only reason I can see not to is that there is more going on with the Type R for this lap than is making it to production.
Even if they offered it in "track spec" there would still be all kinds of optimisations and bespoke tuning done for this specific circuit, some of which would be obvious to anyone doing this sort of thing, other stuff that would be need to know basis. The team of engineers Honda would send to the circuit with the car wouldn't be there for a jolly...Only reason I can see not to is that there is more going on with the Type R for this lap than is making it to production.
This whole hot hatch battle thing is getting boring for sure. Nothing interesting about slapping a massive turbo on a 4cyl engine to get as much horsepower as possible to beat your rivals. The NA hot hatch days were way more interesting and this civic splits opinions with real Honda fans as the character is gone compared with the EK and EP3. Its sad to see engines going this way now.
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