RE: Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo vs Audi S4 Avant

[Dale487]

I want a manual & a petrol engine please - not available on either.

What is the best fast estate you can get with a manual gearbox & a petrol engine? SEAT Leon Cupra 300 (FWD only model) or an Audi S3 Sportback (but its more of a 5 door estate).

[IJB1959]

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but everyone has different opinions and is why these threads exist. I do get your point about the lack steering feedback if that's what you want, and it is something that does not worry me personally, but more and more manufactures will be using electric steering, so before long this will be the norm like it or not.

[marcg]

IJB1959 said:

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but everyone has different opinions and is why these threads exist. I do get your point about the lack steering feedback if that's what you want, and it is something that does not worry me personally, but more and more manufactures will be using electric steering, so before long this will be the norm like it or not.

I keep hearing this about numb steering. So what family cars out there have decent steering? Plenty of hatchback or estate cars with super-power acceleration and other stats, but how many that are actually a pleasure to thread through a B-road?

[W124]

IJB1959 said:

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but everyone has different opinions and is why these threads exist. I do get your point about the lack steering feedback if that's what you want, and it is something that does not worry me personally, but more and more manufactures will be using electric steering, so before long this will be the norm like it or not.

Fair enough. What do you think of the brakes? I (and this is just my opinion) can't get on with the brakes on VAG cars in general. Just way to much servo. Drive an XE (a car inferior in many ways and, again, not one I much like) and you can't help but see the difference. I found the S4 very hard to drive smoothly.

[W124]

marcg said:

I keep hearing this about numb steering. So what family cars out there have decent steering? Plenty of hatchback or estate cars with super-power acceleration and other stats, but how many that are actually a pleasure to thread through a B-road?

Not many. Small, cheap cars on small wheels tend to be better. JLR products, dreadful as they are in many, many ways, tend to be pretty good as drivers cars. I find that, as much as it's electric steering that is part of the issue, it's as much to do with crazy sized wheels and tyres as it is anything else.

[marcg]

It's a question I'm playing with a lot. Wife has sold her Mini Cooper S and replaced it with a beetle so my fun has gone. In about a year I'll want to replace my 09 Qashqai and... have no idea what to get that will be fun whilst reasonably presentable (so no Focus RS). And carry out the family duties. Subaru?

[smiller147]

If the S4 still had that delightful 3.0 s/c'ed V6 I think I would take it over both even if it wouldn't be as fast, but in this case it would have to be the D3

[981C]

C43 AMG estate is better than both these cars from a drivers' perspective. The only reason I didn't buy one is my wife felt the Audi was more comfortable and the interior better. Discount on the A4 also much stronger.

[Onehp]

marcg said:

. have no idea what to get that will be fun whilst reasonably presentable (so no Focus RS). And carry out the family duties. Subaru?

Golf R, Focus ST or Leon Cupra all in estate form. 4wd dsg, or, fwd manual, or, 4wd dsg or fwd vaq manual respectively. Or these if you have 20k more to spend. But if you want a manual and 4wd, Subaru is one of the very few left, but their performance platform is getting older.

[981C]

Onehp said:

Golf R, Focus ST or Leon Cupra all in estate form. 4wd dsg, or, fwd manual, or, 4wd dsg or fwd vaq manual respectively. Or these if you have 20k more to spend. But if you want a manual and 4wd, Subaru is one of the very few left, but their performance platform is getting older.

Something to be said about a Torsen diff. vs. reactive Haldex system (yes, I'm aware the software can be updated).

[Blue62]

culpz said:

I did watch a video of him doing a back-to-back review with the Alpina D3 and the F80 M3. The result being that the D3 was a much better car than BMW's proper M car, apparently. I've not got anything against Steve Sutcliffe but i do find many of his reviews some-what questionable, if i'm completely honest.

I do admire BMW's fast diesels. I spend a fair bit of time in a mapped E60 535D Touring and it left me feeling that it was pretty much the perfect, every day, do-it-all car. The bit that i struggle with is why you would need any more than that? In that respect, i don't really understand the Alpina brand but i do get why others might do. More [power] is never a bad thing.

If you watch the other D3 video by Sutcliffe you will have a better idea of what I'm talking about. I personally enjoy his insight and for the record he doesn't state that the D3 is a much better car than the M3, he simply states a preference for the D3 but adds that he would understand why someone would pick the M3.

The point about Alpina's lies in the chassis, brakes and steering and while they usually out punch their BMW counterparts in the power stakes, that's only a small part of the story. I am currently in an RS4 B8 which is coming up to 3 years old and ready for change, I would genuinely rather have a D3 as my daily but the Alpina finance costs are silly and i'm not in the mood to pay cash at the moment. I have driven the S5 saloon and the S4 as my local dealer is keen to keep me in an Audi but I'm afraid that I found them both to be pretty anodyne and unremarkable save for the lovely interior and tech. I may bite the Alpina bullet but my head says no just now!

[IJB1959]

W124 said:

Fair enough. What do you think of the brakes? I (and this is just my opinion) can't get on with the brakes on VAG cars in general. Just way to much servo. Drive an XE (a car inferior in many ways and, again, not one I much like) and you can't help but see the difference. I found the S4 very hard to drive smoothly.

S4/5 brakes do pull you up sharp, but not a bad thing, and A4 similar but not so aggressive IMO. There are for/against with all cars, and all models have their 'quirks' like VAG do. I have yet to find a car over the years that I am 100% happy with.

[W124]

IJB1959 said:

W124 said:

Fair enough. What do you think of the brakes? I (and this is just my opinion) can't get on with the brakes on VAG cars in general. Just way to much servo. Drive an XE (a car inferior in many ways and, again, not one I much like) and you can't help but see the difference. I found the S4 very hard to drive smoothly.

S4/5 brakes do pull you up sharp, but not a bad thing, and A4 similar but not so aggressive IMO. There are for/against with all cars, and all models have their 'quirks' like VAG do. I have yet to find a car over the years that I am 100% happy with.

I think the only car I've really fully loved was the Porsche 968 I once had. Hard to fault that car. Written off by someone else.

[IJB1959]

W124 said:

I think the only car I've really fully loved was the Porsche 968 I once had. Hard to fault that car. Written off by someone else.

Sod's law that.

[dollyboy]

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

Saying the S4 is a long wheelbase Golf is hardly accurate. The Golf is based on the MQB platform with a transverse engine and haldex 4wd when it's fitted. The S4 uses the MLBevo platform with a longitudinal engine and permanent 4wd. The same platform used by the A8, Q5, Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, and others to come including the Lamborghini Urus.

[dollyboy]

W124 said:

Fair enough. What do you think of the brakes? I (and this is just my opinion) can't get on with the brakes on VAG cars in general. Just way to much servo. Drive an XE (a car inferior in many ways and, again, not one I much like) and you can't help but see the difference. I found the S4 very hard to drive smoothly.

VAG cars, especially Audi have had over servoed brakes for at least 20 years, that's nothing new. But in most applications you soon get used to them. I've never really found it to be an issue, just as you get used to cars with no brake servo.

[IJB1959]

dollyboy said:

Saying the S4 is a long wheelbase Golf is hardly accurate. The Golf is based on the MQB platform with a transverse engine and haldex 4wd when it's fitted. The S4 uses the MLBevo platform with a longitudinal engine and permanent 4wd. The same platform used by the A8, Q5, Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, and others to come including the Lamborghini Urus.

Fair enough. You obviously know more than I do about VAG to technically challenge that odd comment.

Edited by IJB1959 on Monday 8th May 18:58

[moffat]

Dale487 said:

I want a manual & a petrol engine please - not available on either.

What is the best fast estate you can get with a manual gearbox & a petrol engine? SEAT Leon Cupra 300 (FWD only model) or an Audi S3 Sportback (but its more of a 5 door estate).

BMW 340i Touring with the new B58 engine and the M Performance Power and Sound Kit (MPPSK) for an additional £1800. It gives 360bhp and an epic switchable exhaust and is fully covered by the warranty.

An easy choice given 22% discounts and 2.9% APR.

I've just ordered a new 440 with the MPPSK.

[marcg]

981C said:

Onehp said:

Golf R, Focus ST or Leon Cupra all in estate form. 4wd dsg, or, fwd manual, or, 4wd dsg or fwd vaq manual respectively. Or these if you have 20k more to spend. But if you want a manual and 4wd, Subaru is one of the very few left, but their performance platform is getting older.

Something to be said about a Torsen diff. vs. reactive Haldex system (yes, I'm aware the software can be updated).

And those are good steering cars? I've driven the focus and Leon as mid spec hire cars and found them horribly over light on steering. Like cars with a city mode. The focus in particular didn't seem to know which way was straight. Are the fast versions fitted with different steering?

[W124]

dollyboy said:

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

Saying the S4 is a long wheelbase Golf is hardly accurate. The Golf is based on the MQB platform with a transverse engine and haldex 4wd when it's fitted. The S4 uses the MLBevo platform with a longitudinal engine and permanent 4wd. The same platform used by the A8, Q5, Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, and others to come including the Lamborghini Urus.

Yep, you are right there. It still FEELS like a big Golf though. Not my cup of tea at all. But each to their own and all that.