RE: PH Service History: Stamped Out
Discussion
There are two issues with 'FSH' in ads.
First one is that often it isn't FSH at all. Many sellers believe that 'full service history' means 'all the pieces of paper we have'. I've seen 10 year old cars with 3 stamps in the book advertised as having FSH.
Second one is that you can never be sure of quality of a service, and especially main dealer service history can be very, very deceiving. These days dealership are full of kids doing their NVQs, just doing what the computer tells them to do and that lot is overseen by one, maybe two senior techs.
In the past I've had main dealer break expensive stuff during service and then trying to pin it on me.
A mate of mine recently had an issue with his Audi - a car fully serviced by them (yes, every year with the main dealer) lost aux belt which took timing belt off and wrecked the engine. And Audi said that changing aux belt wasn't in the schedule so they didn't do it. Obviously, they haven't even looked at its condition during service.
However, I think history file is a must. In today's world of long schedule service and 'don't worry, it's sealed for life' (small print - of the component, not the car), with so many cars engines being chain driven, I think service history can give you a decent view into how a car has been treated.
Buying on condition is great - except you often can't tell from the condition if there aren't major problems looming.
For example, I wouldn't buy a complex diesel from a premium German brand if the engine oil was changed every 20k miles, even if it did feel good of the test drive.
Last year I was helping someone buy an MPV and we've looked at a fab Mazda 5 petrol. It felt good and was decent condition but had fist 3 years of its life stamped out in the book and then silence for the next 7. I'm not going to buy a car with chain driven engine that might have been run on a shoestring. Sure, you can change the chain. And that will cost what, 30% of the car's value?
It's all too easy to skip a service or two knowing you'll be getting rid of the car soon and someone else will pay for your short term saving.
All in all, I think it's not one or the other. It's one AND the other. For me, a car needs to have a good service history to show it's been cared for but it also needs to be in the right condition.
But then again I always end up spending months searching for a car.
There is, however, another way which seems like only a few people take, which is professional pre-purchase inspection. Though pointless for cheap, mundane cars, I think is it very much advised for more expensive stuff. Sadly the problem here is quite often the absence of good quality specialists in the vicinity of the car's current whereabouts, and I'm not sure how good the AA inspections are.
First one is that often it isn't FSH at all. Many sellers believe that 'full service history' means 'all the pieces of paper we have'. I've seen 10 year old cars with 3 stamps in the book advertised as having FSH.
Second one is that you can never be sure of quality of a service, and especially main dealer service history can be very, very deceiving. These days dealership are full of kids doing their NVQs, just doing what the computer tells them to do and that lot is overseen by one, maybe two senior techs.
In the past I've had main dealer break expensive stuff during service and then trying to pin it on me.
A mate of mine recently had an issue with his Audi - a car fully serviced by them (yes, every year with the main dealer) lost aux belt which took timing belt off and wrecked the engine. And Audi said that changing aux belt wasn't in the schedule so they didn't do it. Obviously, they haven't even looked at its condition during service.
However, I think history file is a must. In today's world of long schedule service and 'don't worry, it's sealed for life' (small print - of the component, not the car), with so many cars engines being chain driven, I think service history can give you a decent view into how a car has been treated.
Buying on condition is great - except you often can't tell from the condition if there aren't major problems looming.
For example, I wouldn't buy a complex diesel from a premium German brand if the engine oil was changed every 20k miles, even if it did feel good of the test drive.
Last year I was helping someone buy an MPV and we've looked at a fab Mazda 5 petrol. It felt good and was decent condition but had fist 3 years of its life stamped out in the book and then silence for the next 7. I'm not going to buy a car with chain driven engine that might have been run on a shoestring. Sure, you can change the chain. And that will cost what, 30% of the car's value?
It's all too easy to skip a service or two knowing you'll be getting rid of the car soon and someone else will pay for your short term saving.
All in all, I think it's not one or the other. It's one AND the other. For me, a car needs to have a good service history to show it's been cared for but it also needs to be in the right condition.
But then again I always end up spending months searching for a car.
There is, however, another way which seems like only a few people take, which is professional pre-purchase inspection. Though pointless for cheap, mundane cars, I think is it very much advised for more expensive stuff. Sadly the problem here is quite often the absence of good quality specialists in the vicinity of the car's current whereabouts, and I'm not sure how good the AA inspections are.
99t said:
The service history of my Z4 coupe went missing whilst it was "in trade" and had I known that prior to viewing it, I probably wouldn't have bothered.
However, because I viewed the car before asking questions, I had already convinced myself that it was a good 'un and that its condition fully matched its 49k recorded miles.
I did some checking before committing to the purchase though, phoning the dealer on the keyring and satisfied myself that as it was sold as a BMW approved used car with a low recorded mileage in 2010 and that the MOT history showed a consistent pattern of usage and few advisories thereafter.
Basically it all added up, so I purchased it and it has been bulletproof in my ownership. I have self-serviced it since using genuine parts and stamped up a reproduction service book - just for the work I have done.
I will probably be selling it later this year, so we will see how the market values it and whether the lack of / partial history is an issue...
Ring BMW. They will tell you which dealers it went into for work during its life. You can then ring those dealers and get the details. They even emailed me copy invoices with the names and addresses redacted. I'd also write to the previous owner on the log book and ask him for any information on where he had it serviced.However, because I viewed the car before asking questions, I had already convinced myself that it was a good 'un and that its condition fully matched its 49k recorded miles.
I did some checking before committing to the purchase though, phoning the dealer on the keyring and satisfied myself that as it was sold as a BMW approved used car with a low recorded mileage in 2010 and that the MOT history showed a consistent pattern of usage and few advisories thereafter.
Basically it all added up, so I purchased it and it has been bulletproof in my ownership. I have self-serviced it since using genuine parts and stamped up a reproduction service book - just for the work I have done.
I will probably be selling it later this year, so we will see how the market values it and whether the lack of / partial history is an issue...
Re the article, I would have thought a full service history was just a complete record of what work has been done on the car, be that in line with mfr recommendations or not
Flumpo said:
Rick101 said:
Lord Marylebone said:
The dealer that it was traded into just chucked away all the paperwork and receipts that came with it.
Why the hell would anybody, especially a 'professional' do that?It baffles me. It's akin to running a key down the side.
I would not buy from any dealer or trader that could not provide the paperwork with the car.
I especially avoid the ones that promise they'll post it on!
I kept every receipt to show the main dealer had not only serviced but done all the parts. I went to trade it in and they made a point of giving them all back. I asked didn’t they want them to go with the car. They explained that as the receipts and service print outs where all main dealer they had my full name and address printed on them. They said it was against the data protection act to pass any of those pieces of paper on and if I didn’t want them they would just go in the bin.
My next experience was I got a car serviced that I knew I would be selling the next week. I had pre payed for the service and thought it would add to the trade in price. Had it done and they pointed out about £900 worth of work that needed doing. None of which was gear box or brakes type stuff. So the service print out showed everything as being in top condition and didn’t point out any of the other parts that were needed.
I think service histories are for people who don't know much about cars.
In recent years I've had ridicule when I have suggested to a vendor I want to jack the car up to have a look underneath both dealers and private. Consternation when I've asked for the bonnet to be raised, and genuine shock when I've spent five minutes looking around an engine bay
But that's nothing to the number of vendors who think a test drive isn't necessary, or want to drive their own car on a test drive.
I can understand it as it is their pride and joy and so many people are prepared to buy a car based on the appearance of the paintwork and a service histroy, why should they cater for someone who wants to test their car?
If I see a gigantic service history , I don't think well cared for car. I think about how much of it actually needed doing and the sort of garages that inflate work when they find one of these people. Not the sort of garage I would want with a legacy all over my next purchase, or a mechanically unsympathetic driver.
In recent years I've had ridicule when I have suggested to a vendor I want to jack the car up to have a look underneath both dealers and private. Consternation when I've asked for the bonnet to be raised, and genuine shock when I've spent five minutes looking around an engine bay
But that's nothing to the number of vendors who think a test drive isn't necessary, or want to drive their own car on a test drive.
I can understand it as it is their pride and joy and so many people are prepared to buy a car based on the appearance of the paintwork and a service histroy, why should they cater for someone who wants to test their car?
If I see a gigantic service history , I don't think well cared for car. I think about how much of it actually needed doing and the sort of garages that inflate work when they find one of these people. Not the sort of garage I would want with a legacy all over my next purchase, or a mechanically unsympathetic driver.
There's a world of difference between the people on here (and the cars they're likely to be looking at) and the majority of the population.
PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
Its mostly nonsense.....in my Ferrari days a FFSH was very important, to the point where a car that had done 300 miles in 3 years had to have had 3 services over the 3 years, really, why......because it was instilled in the owners by the dealers and motoring press that the value would plummet without the stamps in the book, did the car NEED that servicing, of course not.
These days when I am buying exotic or high value cars I am more interested in recent work carried out rather than if an oil service was late or missed in 1998.
Its a UK thing, in my experience other countries not so hung up about it
Turbobanana said:
There's a world of difference between the people on here (and the cars they're likely to be looking at) and the majority of the population.
PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
Some sweeping generalisations there.PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
2 GKC said:
Turbobanana said:
There's a world of difference between the people on here (and the cars they're likely to be looking at) and the majority of the population.
PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
Some sweeping generalisations there.PH community: likely to be reasonably well-off and looking for a specific car / colour / mileage / age etc, AND prepared to pay for it. Therefore, will expect every receipt, service stamp and for the car to be in spotless condition.
Typical car buyer: more concerned with mileage and value for money, less concerned with history. What difference does it make on a 5 year old Yaris?
It's all about expectations.
POORCARDEALER said:
Its mostly nonsense.....in my Ferrari days a FFSH was very important, to the point where a car that had done 300 miles in 3 years had to have had 3 services over the 3 years, really, why......because it was instilled in the owners by the dealers and motoring press that the value would plummet without the stamps in the book, did the car NEED that servicing, of course not.
These days when I am buying exotic or high value cars I am more interested in recent work carried out rather than if an oil service was late or missed in 1998.
Its a UK thing, in my experience other countries not so hung up about it
I totally agree,I have a BMW 6 series which is stored and hasn't had an oil change in 3 years but my wife's DiscoSport which has a service pack goes 21k between oil changes and the oil is like Tar!These days when I am buying exotic or high value cars I am more interested in recent work carried out rather than if an oil service was late or missed in 1998.
Its a UK thing, in my experience other countries not so hung up about it
I know which one is doing the most long term damage and it's definitely not the one with the FSH!
Depend on the car nearly new or (say) 10 years old. Condition is all IMO, yes a FDSH is nice in theory but given some of the gimps working there I'd rather have my car serviced by an enthusiast.
As an example my wife's got a C-coupe which will go to a dealer for its servicing as I suspect it's a car where a lack of dealer stamps will cause resale 'issues'. I, on the other hand, am going to start looking for a 15 year old Mustang - at this point it's all about condition (and as many invoices as possible)
As an example my wife's got a C-coupe which will go to a dealer for its servicing as I suspect it's a car where a lack of dealer stamps will cause resale 'issues'. I, on the other hand, am going to start looking for a 15 year old Mustang - at this point it's all about condition (and as many invoices as possible)
I have always bought my cars with my 'eyes and ears' first, initially through necessity due to being a penniless student but latterly because I've found it to be more reliable and trustworthy.
Receipts for service and wear parts fitted by someone I trust mean far more to me than ticks in a dealer stamped service book.
Specialist receipts for the more complicated stuff can tell you a lot about how the car has been maintained too.
Others may disagree and probably have their own experience to rely on but it's refreshing to read so many like-minded examples of 'my way of maintaining a car'
Good thread.
Receipts for service and wear parts fitted by someone I trust mean far more to me than ticks in a dealer stamped service book.
Specialist receipts for the more complicated stuff can tell you a lot about how the car has been maintained too.
Others may disagree and probably have their own experience to rely on but it's refreshing to read so many like-minded examples of 'my way of maintaining a car'
Good thread.
julian64 said:
But that's nothing to the number of vendors who think a test drive isn't necessary, or want to drive their own car on a test drive.
I wouldn't let you test drive my car as a potential purchaser, what would happen if you crashed it or someone else drove in to us whilst you were driving? No doubt you'd FRO never to be seen again, yes.TX.
Esceptico said:
PSH said:
FSH doesn't mean a car is well looked after or even in good condition....a wad of receipts to show the work that's been done during the current owners ownership is of much more importance. It's reasonably easy to see a spot that's been cherished ...number of owners is a good guide to how well the car has been throughout it's history too...the fewer the more likely that the owners loved their cars, you tend to keep a car that you enjoy and has few faults..
My own history file ....
I need a bigger file
Pete
I don’t think number of owners necessarily matters. For performance cars I think the opposite can be true - so long as the car has been sold through an official dealer each time it is sold it will have been prepared and checked over and possibly work done to satisfy the warranty. My own history file ....
I need a bigger file
Pete
Also: I would rather have 4 careful owners than one careless one!
I admit an advantage of one owner cars is that you can meet that owner and make an assessment of them.
Esceptico - I've the opposite view of 'official dealers' - I don't think these "100-point checks" are worth much, assuming they're even done at all. Far rather buy from a private seller who I can meet and assess and get a feel for. Also guarantees that "the folder full of receipts hasn't been sent by the previous owner" line can't be used - had that at least 3 times when looking at older performance cars!
To answer the original question - to me it does matter - I'd want to see evidence of a car I'm buying being looked after, going back as far as possible. Even with the wife's leased Golfs, we've had them serviced on the 12-month interval not the long-life, as that's what feels right to me.
I often spend just as much time judging the owner as the vehicle. When I bought my current bike it wasn't just because it was in fantastic condition, it was also because I walked a supremely organised garage that included a whiteboard with a column for each vehicle he owned, with upcoming services listed and the rego papers held on below with a magnet, and he could describe everything he'd done and why. Whereas I'm in the market for another bike now, and I've seen stuff advertised as in excellent condition with full service history, only to get there and have the owner look at me blankly when my response to them saying they lube the chain regularly is to point out that they need to clean it too, not just spray more lube over the top.
Is this article written on behalf of the many PH advertisers, both trade and private, who are economical with the truth when describing service histories?
Of course an FSH is valid, even more so today as cars become evermore complex and run high engine temps due to forced induction. Software updates and regular oil changes are esssential.
Anyone who suggests an FSH is not important is either very naive or about to sell a car with a patchy history.
Of course an FSH is valid, even more so today as cars become evermore complex and run high engine temps due to forced induction. Software updates and regular oil changes are esssential.
Anyone who suggests an FSH is not important is either very naive or about to sell a car with a patchy history.
I will always prefer a car to have a FSH when looking for a second hand purchase, and will pay more for it, because despite all the modern electronic technology, a FSH remains the only way to verify the mileage. All other alleged mileage guarantees are baseless. However, for a FSH to prove mileage, it must be not faked ... another subject for another thread.
But is a FSH worth its weight in gold? No. Worth having, and worth paying a little extra for, for the above reason. But there are a lot of people fooling themselves into believing that a FSH means the car has had all the parts and maintenance it should have done for its age and mileage. This is simply untrue, even if it's been 'serviced', even by a main dealer or indy specialist, on time, every time at the ideal age and/or mileage.
Why? Because the ONLY thing that a FSH guarantees has been done is new fluids and filters. This particularly catches people out badly when looking at used Boxsters and other powerful machinery that eats suspension and other parts. What usually happens is, every major service, the main dealer or indy does an inspection in addition to the usual fluid and filter change. They then flag up all sorts of bits and pieces that ideally need changing on an advisory sheet. BUT the dealer/indy will happily stamp the book even if the owner doesn't get the advisories actioned. So, a hapless punter goes to view the car three major services later. The owner has conveniently lost the advisory sheets. The punter doesn't know the car needs £2K worth of new suspension and £1K+ worth of other stuff even though it's been serviced on time, every time by dealer/indy.
When buying any car that's expensive to run, you need receipts for parts, especially suspension, not just a FSH.
But is a FSH worth its weight in gold? No. Worth having, and worth paying a little extra for, for the above reason. But there are a lot of people fooling themselves into believing that a FSH means the car has had all the parts and maintenance it should have done for its age and mileage. This is simply untrue, even if it's been 'serviced', even by a main dealer or indy specialist, on time, every time at the ideal age and/or mileage.
Why? Because the ONLY thing that a FSH guarantees has been done is new fluids and filters. This particularly catches people out badly when looking at used Boxsters and other powerful machinery that eats suspension and other parts. What usually happens is, every major service, the main dealer or indy does an inspection in addition to the usual fluid and filter change. They then flag up all sorts of bits and pieces that ideally need changing on an advisory sheet. BUT the dealer/indy will happily stamp the book even if the owner doesn't get the advisories actioned. So, a hapless punter goes to view the car three major services later. The owner has conveniently lost the advisory sheets. The punter doesn't know the car needs £2K worth of new suspension and £1K+ worth of other stuff even though it's been serviced on time, every time by dealer/indy.
When buying any car that's expensive to run, you need receipts for parts, especially suspension, not just a FSH.
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