RE: Stripped bare: PH Footnote
Discussion
Dale487 said:
The only non-DSG I could find was over 180 miles away and was grey with orange wheels, mirrors & grille (ex-SEAT UK press car I believe) - not to my taste. As I wanted a manual & petrol car (as I don't do the miles to make a diesel be viable or sensible) that discounted the Golf R estate & GTD estate.
Octavia vRS Estate?Wammer said:
I have never had a car power assisted steering let alone A/C. My daily driver is pretty much a track day car but I have taken it on a track day. I use it all year round rain, shine or even snow. If I get cold I put a jumper on and in the summer I take the roof off.
Now I feel like even more of a wuss - bravo that PHer!Dale487 said:
The only non-DSG I could find was over 180 miles away and was grey with orange wheels, mirrors & grille (ex-SEAT UK press car I believe) - not to my taste. As I wanted a manual & petrol car (as I don't do the miles to make a diesel be viable or sensible) that discounted the Golf R estate & GTD estate.
I found none so had to buy new, pretty good price still. Change those wheels to 18" lightweight and have mirrors and grille wrapped. Done and a better car for it. A lot cheaper tyres too 
yes agreed 
Aes87 said:
I always thought they got the balance right in the 90s with cars like the Z3 M and the NSX - nothing unnecessary but still comfortable, with every aspect of the driving experience properly thought through and engineered by people who knew what they were doing and actually cared.
These days it’s all just a marketing exercise
These days it’s all just a marketing exercise
Thorburn said:
Dale487 said:
The only non-DSG I could find was over 180 miles away and was grey with orange wheels, mirrors & grille (ex-SEAT UK press car I believe) - not to my taste. As I wanted a manual & petrol car (as I don't do the miles to make a diesel be viable or sensible) that discounted the Golf R estate & GTD estate.
Octavia vRS Estate?This is something I have pondered regularly.
It's not just the pay more for less sports cars that are trying to be super cars either. The plethora of "hot hatch" cars that have become too focused to remain practical of late.
Cars always have to be a compromise. They could all be low slung, stupid tyred, bhp top trump players set up to do laps round circuits but sometimes we have to go to the shops.
Personally I can't see the point of the uber hot hatches in the really real world of pot holes, curbs, congestion and crap. Sure you need to do a few hundred road miles to keep the brakes and other consumables in check but if you are that much of a hard core track day fanatic; get a kit car.
I think PH could do a little experiment.
Get a basic hatchback. Get a superleggera version (both cars with the same engine capacity). Take a quarter of the price difference and spend it on the basic version. Strip it out, brakes, suspension, wheels/tyres, exhaust and simple tuning then see how much faster/slower the factory track car is compared to the home built one.
It's not just the pay more for less sports cars that are trying to be super cars either. The plethora of "hot hatch" cars that have become too focused to remain practical of late.
Cars always have to be a compromise. They could all be low slung, stupid tyred, bhp top trump players set up to do laps round circuits but sometimes we have to go to the shops.
Personally I can't see the point of the uber hot hatches in the really real world of pot holes, curbs, congestion and crap. Sure you need to do a few hundred road miles to keep the brakes and other consumables in check but if you are that much of a hard core track day fanatic; get a kit car.
I think PH could do a little experiment.
Get a basic hatchback. Get a superleggera version (both cars with the same engine capacity). Take a quarter of the price difference and spend it on the basic version. Strip it out, brakes, suspension, wheels/tyres, exhaust and simple tuning then see how much faster/slower the factory track car is compared to the home built one.
Liquid Knight said:
This is something I have pondered regularly.
It's not just the pay more for less sports cars that are trying to be super cars either. The plethora of "hot hatch" cars that have become too focused to remain practical of late.
Cars always have to be a compromise. They could all be low slung, stupid tyred, bhp top trump players set up to do laps round circuits but sometimes we have to go to the shops.
Personally I can't see the point of the uber hot hatches in the really real world of pot holes, curbs, congestion and crap. Sure you need to do a few hundred road miles to keep the brakes and other consumables in check but if you are that much of a hard core track day fanatic; get a kit car.
I think PH could do a little experiment.
Get a basic hatchback. Get a superleggera version (both cars with the same engine capacity). Take a quarter of the price difference and spend it on the basic version. Strip it out, brakes, suspension, wheels/tyres, exhaust and simple tuning then see how much faster/slower the factory track car is compared to the home built one.
Haven't Honda for the last 3 generations of the Civic Type-R made a base Type-R (not a light weight special but lighter on kit) & the GT model (with extra niceties) - they never claimed the base model was any faster or quicker and even though the GT was about £2K more, I think everyone in the UK went for it. I think that tells you want you need to know at a hot hatch level, sports & super cars are a bit different.It's not just the pay more for less sports cars that are trying to be super cars either. The plethora of "hot hatch" cars that have become too focused to remain practical of late.
Cars always have to be a compromise. They could all be low slung, stupid tyred, bhp top trump players set up to do laps round circuits but sometimes we have to go to the shops.
Personally I can't see the point of the uber hot hatches in the really real world of pot holes, curbs, congestion and crap. Sure you need to do a few hundred road miles to keep the brakes and other consumables in check but if you are that much of a hard core track day fanatic; get a kit car.
I think PH could do a little experiment.
Get a basic hatchback. Get a superleggera version (both cars with the same engine capacity). Take a quarter of the price difference and spend it on the basic version. Strip it out, brakes, suspension, wheels/tyres, exhaust and simple tuning then see how much faster/slower the factory track car is compared to the home built one.
People who commute on scooters and motorbikes everyday don't have radios - well most of them - and get along fine. I think you just get used to not listening to things or fiddling. When I first started driving on my own, I never used the radio unless I had passengers as I'd been doing my learner driving listening to mum and dad. Took a few years. I will appreciate now if I am stuck on stop start traffic I'll have the news on, and air con in such an environment in summer is a must here in Aus, but I don't miss those things when I'm on the motorbike and presumably if you are using your fun car for some twisty roads in the country or headed to a track, unless you get stuck in a gridlock on your way you probably don't need them.
We have all become used to fripperies. Go back 20 years and most cars had very little in the way if equipment and I didn't remember many people complaining.
If your first car is a newish Polo or something with air con and power steering, of course you will want that when you get a Porsche. But cars are usually better without them.
If your first car is a newish Polo or something with air con and power steering, of course you will want that when you get a Porsche. But cars are usually better without them.
I guess we're in a pretty good place when sports cars are so fundamentally sorted, that debating a few kg of extra kit one way or another becomes an issue 
Personally I'm with Matt, and sought out an Elise with A/C, as it's still all too common in the crowded SE of England to get stuck in traffic for an hour in the summer. Nice to arrive a bit less sweat-soaked.
There is also the issue of sprung/unsprung weight, and to my mind 8kg saved with forged alloys, compensates for 15kg of A/C (plus I've shed a couple of stone in the last year or so!).
Where I do take issue, is the continual addition of standard features (and weight) to everyday cars, which do nothing but add bloat. My mid-range Fiesta had 'mood lighting' in the cabin for goodness sake!
Personally I'm with Matt, and sought out an Elise with A/C, as it's still all too common in the crowded SE of England to get stuck in traffic for an hour in the summer. Nice to arrive a bit less sweat-soaked.
There is also the issue of sprung/unsprung weight, and to my mind 8kg saved with forged alloys, compensates for 15kg of A/C (plus I've shed a couple of stone in the last year or so!).
Where I do take issue, is the continual addition of standard features (and weight) to everyday cars, which do nothing but add bloat. My mid-range Fiesta had 'mood lighting' in the cabin for goodness sake!
LEDs don't weigh much.
When Lotus introduced electric windows in the S2 Elise, there was an outcry from S1 purists (myself included). Until we learned that the electric window mechanism was lighter than the manual mech it replaced. So, I guess now I don't have a problem with luxuries per se, and windows (if you really must have windows, you softies!) do need to go up and down somehow, but aircon has never been necessary in any car in the UK, let alone a sports car, and any car you spend time in purely for the sake of driving will be so loud you're better off with headphones than speakers anyway.
I don't really see the point in paying a premium for a lighter version of a car, made lighter using carbon fibre this and magnesium that, for £'000s, with barely a weight saving bigger than an extra bacon roll.
I definitely understand the mentality of simply not ticking unnecessary boxes in the first place. If aircon is an optional extra, it means the car probably shouldn't have it. I mean, it's standard on any shopping car you can mention these days, so if Lotus decide it's not a standard feature, they probably think it's not essential to the experience of Lotus ownership, and I would totally agree with that.
(I also believe a radio, doors, windows electric or otherwise, windscreens, aircon or heaters are not essential to Lotus ownership either, so I'm not exactly sitting on the fence on this one...)
When Lotus introduced electric windows in the S2 Elise, there was an outcry from S1 purists (myself included). Until we learned that the electric window mechanism was lighter than the manual mech it replaced. So, I guess now I don't have a problem with luxuries per se, and windows (if you really must have windows, you softies!) do need to go up and down somehow, but aircon has never been necessary in any car in the UK, let alone a sports car, and any car you spend time in purely for the sake of driving will be so loud you're better off with headphones than speakers anyway.
I don't really see the point in paying a premium for a lighter version of a car, made lighter using carbon fibre this and magnesium that, for £'000s, with barely a weight saving bigger than an extra bacon roll.
I definitely understand the mentality of simply not ticking unnecessary boxes in the first place. If aircon is an optional extra, it means the car probably shouldn't have it. I mean, it's standard on any shopping car you can mention these days, so if Lotus decide it's not a standard feature, they probably think it's not essential to the experience of Lotus ownership, and I would totally agree with that.
(I also believe a radio, doors, windows electric or otherwise, windscreens, aircon or heaters are not essential to Lotus ownership either, so I'm not exactly sitting on the fence on this one...)
Edited by TartanPaint on Friday 13th April 11:09
YellowCar said:
Personally I'm with Matt, and sought out an Elise with A/C, as it's still all too common in the crowded SE of England to get stuck in traffic for an hour in the summer. Nice to arrive a bit less sweat-soaked.
TartanPaint said:
When Lotus introduced electric windows in the S2 Elise, there was an outcry from S1 purists (myself included). Until we learned that the electric window mechanism was lighter than the manual mech it replaced. So, I guess now I don't have a problem with luxuries per se, and windows (if you really must have windows, you softies!) do need to go up and down somehow, but aircon has never been necessary in any car in the UK, let alone a sports car, and any car you spend time in purely for the sake of driving will be so loud you're better off with headphones than speakers anyway.
I do remember bringing my S1 Elise back from camping at Snetterton mid-summer and getting stuck in traffic on the M25 - I'd left in a hurry and slung everything in the passenger footwell and left the room on rather than packing properly, and ended up crawling along until I got into some shade under a bridge, switching off the engine and sitting with the door open as I was BAKING. When there was about a 100m gap in front of me I relented and drove back out into the sun. I'd have killed for a/c that day, but otherwise it has never been an issue.I took the stereo out of my Elise as realised I never used it, infact I don't listen to anything at all when driving any of our cars as I find I concentrate more without the distraction. Amusingly the V12 Vantage S has the B&O optional 1000w, 13 speaker system, which must have cost the original owner an absolute fortune, and is purely used for sat-nav instructions.
TartanPaint said:
I don't really see the point in paying a premium for a lighter version of a car, made lighter using carbon fibre this and magnesium that, for £'000s, with barely a weight saving bigger than an extra bacon roll.
Makes me laugh how almost every Elise CR/S CR you see has the "Comfort Pack" fitted, which basically turns it back into an Elise 1.6/S with some lightly padded seats and some black detailing.TartanPaint said:
LEDs don't weigh much.
Agreed - but if we're trading weight for benefit, then mood lighting adds even less!The additional wiring, connectors, fittings etc all add up. Add in sensors and controls for auto wipers, auto lighting, auto-dipping mirrors etc, and grams soon become killos, which is where we started...
8-9 years with an Elise S1 as an only car. Stereo was a must for me, but head unit and pair of speakers weighs next to nothing anyway.
Other than a road trip to Italy where it was creeping towards 40c, I've never thought I needed ac.
I did get a hard top for it a year or so ago and a set of mats, so it's positively lardy as far as these go
I kind of get the idea with some of these, but most of the weight loss stuff does smell of marketing. Pulling 50kg out of a 1400kg car doesn't mean it's light.
Other than a road trip to Italy where it was creeping towards 40c, I've never thought I needed ac.
I did get a hard top for it a year or so ago and a set of mats, so it's positively lardy as far as these go
I kind of get the idea with some of these, but most of the weight loss stuff does smell of marketing. Pulling 50kg out of a 1400kg car doesn't mean it's light.
I see why people like their cars stripped bare, but I thought that closed LMP cars lap quicker with air con than without it, because their drivers are then more alert? Obviously that doesn't apply to open tops, and it doesn't justify dragging an interior around heavier than a Chesterfield sofa. But Colin Chapman wasn't always right: sometimes, additional weighty extras can add benefits that counteract their weight.
t for hours on end. Absolutely no idea why you would even think about a radio in a car like an exsige. I drove around Europe in an Ariel Nomad.
As stripped and basic as it gets.
Yet I agree with Matt - removing aircon is ridiculous. People saying "just put the roof down" are clearly used to Blackpool levels of summer. You will do whatever you can to cover yourself from sun, not to expose even more.
For my non-pro level driving, I will always be faster and safer on the track, being comfortable and cool than exhausted and overheated.
As stripped and basic as it gets.
Yet I agree with Matt - removing aircon is ridiculous. People saying "just put the roof down" are clearly used to Blackpool levels of summer. You will do whatever you can to cover yourself from sun, not to expose even more.
For my non-pro level driving, I will always be faster and safer on the track, being comfortable and cool than exhausted and overheated.
blearyeyedboy said:
I see why people like their cars stripped bare, but I thought that closed LMP cars lap quicker with air con than without it, because their drivers are then more alert? Obviously that doesn't apply to open tops, and it doesn't justify dragging an interior around heavier than a Chesterfield sofa. But Colin Chapman wasn't always right: sometimes, additional weighty extras can add benefits that counteract their weight.
Aircon doesn't just add weight, the compressor leaches power too. You're right though, certainly for longer periods of driving driver comfort and alertness (hot people are drowsy people) will pay dividends. I'll still switch the a/c off when I don't need it as if nothing else it helps fuel consumption, and in my Fiesta with 100bhp it makes a noticeable difference to acceleration.
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