RE: £50k Integra Type R!

[anonymous-user]

Derek Chevalier said:

cb1965 said:

Gecko1978 said:

WTF its a good car but it's been surpassed by others made by Honda. So unless your desperate to have a 1990s fwd car then I suggest the current civic does all you want for less.

Have you ever driven one of these? I owned one for many years, by far and away the best out of the box handling car I have ever owned.

Have you ever driven the current Type R?

Is there a current Integra Type R or do you mean the Civic?

[leonintegra36]

£50k doesn't surprise me in relation to what the integra cost new and the fact Honda made a loss on every Type R Dc2 sold. Honda will never produce a car like it again; hand ported and polished from the factory, assembly was limited to twenty five units a day. The integra has great handling, damping, and involvement, coupled with a clarity of purpose that connects all the greatest drivers' cars. It is a special car at any price point, with a gearbox that is rifle bolt precise and unsurpassed. Its paired back ethos, thinned glass, removal of sound deadening, lightweight conrods are all reminiscent of the finest Porsche Rs models. It has an obligatory helical Limited Slip Differential, strengthened chassis, lightweight exhaust, double wishbone suspension and 104bhp per litre, one of the highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated engine. The Recaros were as good as any performance car available and the momo steering wheel was shared with Ferrari's 550. EVO classed the integra as the greatest front driven car, and one of the finest handling cars period. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.

[Derek Chevalier]

cb1965 said:

Derek Chevalier said:

cb1965 said:

Gecko1978 said:

WTF its a good car but it's been surpassed by others made by Honda. So unless your desperate to have a 1990s fwd car then I suggest the current civic does all you want for less.

Have you ever driven one of these? I owned one for many years, by far and away the best out of the box handling car I have ever owned.

Have you ever driven the current Type R?

Is there a current Integra Type R or do you mean the Civic?

Civic

[TheJimi]

xjay1337 said:

Integras are a cult classic but £50k?

World is bonkers and many car enthusiasts are also nutters.

£50k will buy you nearly anything this side of (and including) a V10 R8.....

You're missing the point.

Totally different markets. This is high end collector territory. People with big budgets and equally big collections.

Whoever bought this is unlikely give a stuff about a cheap R8.

[Derek Chevalier]

leonintegra36 said:

£50k doesn't surprise me in relation to what the integra cost new and the fact Honda made a loss on every Type R Dc2 sold. Honda will never produce a car like it again; hand ported and polished from the factory, assembly was limited to twenty five units a day. The integra has great handling, damping, and involvement, coupled with a clarity of purpose that connects all the greatest drivers' cars. It is a special car at any price point, with a gearbox that is rifle bolt precise and unsurpassed. Its paired back ethos, thinned glass, removal of sound deadening, lightweight conrods are all reminiscent of the finest Porsche Rs models. It has an obligatory helical Limited Slip Differential, strengthened chassis, lightweight exhaust, double wishbone suspension and 104bhp per litre, one of the highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated engine. The Recaros were as good as any performance car available and the momo steering wheel was shared with Ferrari's 550. EVO classed the integra as the greatest front driven car, and one of the finest handling cars period. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.

Why do you feel the current Civic is inferior (given the constraints of 21st century regulations)? Different, not necessarily inferior. May be worth taking a look at the latest EVO - track car of the year.

[leonintegra36]

Derek Chevalier said:

leonintegra36 said:

£50k doesn't surprise me in relation to what the integra cost new and the fact Honda made a loss on every Type R Dc2 sold. Honda will never produce a car like it again; hand ported and polished from the factory, assembly was limited to twenty five units a day. The integra has great handling, damping, and involvement, coupled with a clarity of purpose that connects all the greatest drivers' cars. It is a special car at any price point, with a gearbox that is rifle bolt precise and unsurpassed. Its paired back ethos, thinned glass, removal of sound deadening, lightweight conrods are all reminiscent of the finest Porsche Rs models. It has an obligatory helical Limited Slip Differential, strengthened chassis, lightweight exhaust, double wishbone suspension and 104bhp per litre, one of the highest specific outputs of any normally aspirated engine. The Recaros were as good as any performance car available and the momo steering wheel was shared with Ferrari's 550. EVO classed the integra as the greatest front driven car, and one of the finest handling cars period. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.

Why do you feel the current Civic is inferior (given the constraints of 21st century regulations)? Different, not necessarily inferior. May be worth taking a look at the latest EVO - track car of the year.

I am trying to convey how special the integra is and am not disputing the new civic type r as any other than a great car. I do think the integra being a layer removed from more modern heavier cars enables it to feel more special more of the time. Even trundling to the shops the integra feels like it has a sense of occasion, whereas the new civic almost feels too refined most of the time; possibly no bad thing if a daily driver. I actually felt the on boost kick of the new civic type r felt too linear, next to my old 360bhp 4 wheel drive Cosworth. Yet I never crave more power in the integra due to the on cam noise and exploiting the 9k redline on a twisty road being in its own way as intoxicating as the Cosworth was ridiculously fast. Removing the airbox on an integra makes it absolutely scream on cam.

[havoc]

Derek Chevalier said:

(given the constraints of 21st century regulations)

I think that's the key differentiator for a lot of people (and different people will revert to different decades, depending on age / preferences) - modern cars HAVE to comply with so many regs (crash and emissions key among them) that even 20 years ago weren't really a problem. That DOES force a compromise into the car, either in terms of visual design, size/weight, engine characteristics, etc. etc.

Modern cars (let's stick with the FK8) are unquestionably faster, grippier, safer and cleaner than their counterparts 20 years ago. But that comes with a different character, which may or may not be a good thing.


If progress was unquestionably good, then classic Ferraris and Astons wouldn't change hands for multi-millions. But they do. Everything that stems from that is just personal taste...

[Car-Matt]

cb1965 said:

Gecko1978 said:

WTF its a good car but it's been surpassed by others made by Honda. So unless your desperate to have a 1990s fwd car then I suggest the current civic does all you want for less.

Have you ever driven one of these? I owned one for many years, by far and away the best out of the box handling car I have ever owned.

I think EVO Magazine put that myth to bed a few years ago after their overly bold claim in 2006, good yes, greatest no, greatest FWD, no.

An R26R is better in every conceivable way

Edited by Car-Matt on Tuesday 2nd October 13:33

[s m]

leonintegra36 said:

. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.

Any ideas why the UK press cars were a bit unremarkable?

To wit, it got beaten round the track by a 328i with roughly the same power( and considerably heavier ) at Autocar mag's !998 Handling Day. Also struggled to pip the 2.8 Z3 with roughly the same power and more weight at CAR mag's 1997 Handling Day.

Just lack of grip on the 195 tyres or do they need to be 'learned' to get the best out of them.

I drove one at Bruntingthorpe and it was a nice steer, fun round the open 'hairpin' part of the track on that day

[Alpinestars]

Car-Matt said:

I think EVO Magazine put that myth to bed a few years ago after their overly bold claim in 2006, good yes, greatest no, greatest FWD, no.

An R26R is better in every conceivable way

Edited by Car-Matt on Tuesday 2nd October 13:33

Quicker, more effective, but not as involving as a DC2.

[BricktopST205]

Whatever people say I think it is great that Japanese cars are being recognised. For too long they have been in the shadow of European car makers when in fact during the 90's the Japs were second to none.

[leonintegra36]

s m said:

leonintegra36 said:

. Look at some Japanese Best Motoring videos of the integra and see how it's lightness and balance makes it quicker than many cars with twice the power at Tsukuba circuit. It lapped quicker than a 22B impreza.

Any ideas why the UK press cars were a bit unremarkable?

To wit, it got beaten round the track by a 328i with roughly the same power( and considerably heavier ) at Autocar mag's !998 Handling Day. Also struggled to pip the 2.8 Z3 with roughly the same power and more weight at CAR mag's 1997 Handling Day.

Just lack of grip on the 195 tyres or do they need to be 'learned' to get the best out of them.

I drove one at Bruntingthorpe and it was a nice steer, fun round the open 'hairpin' part of the track on that day

I remember the autocar test in '98 and they slated the integra for oddly spaced gear ratios, never a problem in my example. Each integra drives slightly differently being hand finished and some needed thrashing more than others. I believe the earliest cars felt rather more raw than the later ones, possibly peakier and less tractable. I did also wonder if that example was run in properly or repeatedly abused by motoring hacks. I had a 328I back then for road use, a lovely steer, but it required a slow in fast out approach to stop the back end stepping out. An integra would lose a 328I on tighter circuits such as Oulton Park, despite being down 1,000cc. The e36 328i was nearly as quick as the e36 M3 so had good top end power and decent handling finesse.

[STI VI]

Having recently purchased a delivery mileage UK Evo 8 MR FQ340 I am hoping for a similar return in a few years time, the market has gone bonkers but the world is now full of collects of JDM cars..........

[havoc]

Car-Matt said:

cb1965 said:

Gecko1978 said:

WTF its a good car but it's been surpassed by others made by Honda. So unless your desperate to have a 1990s fwd car then I suggest the current civic does all you want for less.

Have you ever driven one of these? I owned one for many years, by far and away the best out of the box handling car I have ever owned.

I think EVO Magazine put that myth to bed a few years ago after their overly bold claim in 2006, good yes, greatest no, greatest FWD, no.

An R26R is better in every conceivable way

:ahem:

Engine response
Engine sound
Gearchange
Driving position

...are all unquestionably superior in the DC2. As is centre of gravity.

...and then there's little stuff like looks, reliability, practicality (a 2-seat hatchback? Really?!?)...and arguably ride quality too. While stuff like handling is down to personal preference - the evo boys broadly (but not unanimously) prefer the Megane.

Pay your money / take your choice, IMHO...I'll take the all-rounder Integra...albeit not for £50k!

[WCZ]

I personally pref'd the dc5 over the dc2 and the ek9 the most

[greenarrow]

Alpinestars said:

Car-Matt said:

I think EVO Magazine put that myth to bed a few years ago after their overly bold claim in 2006, good yes, greatest no, greatest FWD, no.

An R26R is better in every conceivable way

Edited by Car-Matt on Tuesday 2nd October 13:33

Quicker, more effective, but not as involving as a DC2.

Really? I've just been re-reading EVO Issue 200, the greatest cars feature. The R26-R made the final five, the DC2 didn't. Jethro Bovington said this.... "It could've faded away in the context of the others, but its so polished dynamically that it stands tall even alongside cars as uncompromising and thrilling as the (Ferrari) Speciale. It really is one of the greats and deserves its place in the final five".

An earlier poster has also rightly noted that track times by UK mags weren't all that special. One that always surprised me was Top Gear Magazine in 2000. The Ford Racing Puma beat it by 1.7 seconds around Pembrey in the hands of a pro driver and the original phase 1 Clio 172 pipped it too......

DC2 - Obviously an all time great car, but another cult car that is IMO a little over hyped at times. The 205GTI suffers the same and I speak that as a former owner of one of those.....

[havoc]

greenarrow said:

DC2 - Obviously an all time great car, but another cult car that is IMO a little over hyped at times. The 205GTI suffers the same and I speak that as a former owner of one of those.....

I've owned two and it does tend towards that a little - in particular I wish people wouldn't focus on its lap-times / giant-killing, as that rather takes-away from the best points, where I think it CAN hold its own...

IMHO I don't think the road-car was optimised for lap-times - it ran 195/55/15 rubber, and Bridgestone stuff at that. Racing Puma had a wider track and bigger footprint, for example.

[Petrolism]

The B- series type R engines were something special - made at a time when emissions requirements were still not a glint in politician’s eyes at how much they could fleece motorists for.
I can’t think of a more intoxicating normally aspirated 4 cylinder production car engine capable of high mileages whilst making over 100 bhp per litre from the factory.

Mine’s had a few bolt on bits to enhance what was already a great engine from the factory (98 JDM spec came with a good 4-1 manifold with 2.5 inch bore so that didn’t need uprating).
Mugen twin loop exhaust, 2.5” decat, Spoon ECU (9k Rev limit & VTec from 5,000), Gruppe M intake kit, Mugen engine and transmission mounts, TODA lightweight flywheel, Spoon clutch, Synchrotech carbon lined synchros, etc).

Power / weight ratio isn’t that far off a modern turbo Honda type R, but the only driver aid electronics is the ABS.
A friend who has a 2015 Civic Type R says he’d have had a DC2, but impossible to find one on sale that’s not been abused, rusty, bashed, etc.

Even in Japan, they’re hard to find in perfect condition. Demand will continue to outstrip supply, so they’re destined to rise in value considerably. So too are some of the better K20 engined type R’s, but the DC2 will be like the E30 is in M3 BMW circles... just give it time.

[Petrolism]

havoc said:

I've owned two and it does tend towards that a little - in particular I wish people wouldn't focus on its lap-times / giant-killing, as that rather takes-away from the best points, where I think it CAN hold its own...

IMHO I don't think the road-car was optimised for lap-times - it ran 195/55/15 rubber, and Bridgestone stuff at that. Racing Puma had a wider track and bigger footprint, for example.

JDM 98 spec ran 205/50R16’s with larger brakes than U.K. cars (IIRC?). The design of Honda suspension on B series engined Civic and Integra Type R’s - helped provide the handling greatness that made these cars special. Subsequent replacements had McPherson struts at the front and weren’t as sweet handling as a result.

[SidewaysSi]

I had mine for 4 years. Used hard on road and track and never missed a beat.

Needed a lot being spent on it to bring it up to scratch though - suspension refurb, rusty arches, fading paint etc.

Whilst it was a very good car, I didn't love it. Never got on with the poor steering and it was never really a challenge to drive. But I do still think of the old thing, V845 GCK where are you now?

But I wouldn't buy another - I do prefer my much modified E36 328 as it is a more resolved machine.