RE: Toyota GR Supra vs Litchfield vs Auto Torque

[xjay1337]

samoht said:

My only concern would be having a de-cat and de-GPF on a nearly new car, then MoTs becoming a hassle. High flow cats can often make emissions marginal for the MoT, and I'm not aware of any aftermarket high-flow GPFs, still less ones that meet the original regs. Easy for tuners to take your money now and disclaim any responsibility in three years time when the car fails its first MoT. Still, at least if you keep the stock parts you have a way out.

Why is that a problem, every single car gets an MOT (over 3 yrs old) and everyone who has a Decat (or DPF delete) manages fine! :-)

[redroadster]

Needs big wing on it to balance shape out but overall I quite like it and never owned original so can't compare that way .

[Frimley111R]

The more I see of this the more I like it and the less I care about the BMW bits.

[stuart-b]

xjay1337 said:

I'm sorry, that's pure marketing hype.
The B58 engine has been in the BMW x40i models for 2-3 years now? While there are some VERY minor changes between the B58 in the Supra v the x40i models, it's basically the same.

All of the external vents etc, are fake, you can't even open them up if you wanted to, because they don't flow anywhere. You'd be butch
It's literally a BMW in a Toyota designed body/interior.
I have no real opinion on it, I think it looks quite nice, I like the Toyota dashboard, not a fan of the steering wheel (BMW buttons from 2012).

Has an LSD as standard though, where as the BMW's don't.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 24th November 00:53

Hate to call you out xjay, but you could easily check online what the B58TU offers. Where did you read that there are only minor changes?

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?a...

All the external vents are designed to be opened up and support additional coolers- did you watch the Toyota press release?

Given what you've written here, I wonder if you've spent more than 5 minutes looking these things up ?

[Burwood]

stuart-b said:

xjay1337 said:

I'm sorry, that's pure marketing hype.
The B58 engine has been in the BMW x40i models for 2-3 years now? While there are some VERY minor changes between the B58 in the Supra v the x40i models, it's basically the same.

All of the external vents etc, are fake, you can't even open them up if you wanted to, because they don't flow anywhere. You'd be butch
It's literally a BMW in a Toyota designed body/interior.
I have no real opinion on it, I think it looks quite nice, I like the Toyota dashboard, not a fan of the steering wheel (BMW buttons from 2012).

Has an LSD as standard though, where as the BMW's don't.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 24th November 00:53

Hate to call you out xjay, but you could easily check online what the B58TU offers. Where did you read that there are only minor changes? Appears to all have the TU engine but BMW 340 has lower compression which according to 'experts' means it can actually handle higher boost pressures

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?a...

All the external vents are designed to be opened up and support additional coolers- did you watch the Toyota press release?

Given what you've written here, I wonder if you've spent more than 5 minutes looking these things up ?

Stuart, so is the Supra engine the same as that found in the current G20 340 Xdrive and X3 M40? TIA

Edited by Burwood on Sunday 24th November 18:58

[xjay1337]

stuart-b said:

Hate to call you out xjay, but you could easily check online what the B58TU offers. Where did you read that there are only minor changes?

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?a...

All the external vents are designed to be opened up and support additional coolers- did you watch the Toyota press release?

Given what you've written here, I wonder if you've spent more than 5 minutes looking these things up ?

No problems :-)

I've seen one in the flesh - spent quite a bit of time around it actually. many of the vents don't go anywhere!

This video explains it better. Basically you can't really open them up, certainly not without a lot of work, it's no WAY near as simple as "simply removing the vent"

https://www.motor1.com/news/371160/toyota-supra-fa...

While there are differences between the earlier B58 and the later B58 used in the Supra, it's hardly a WHOLE NEW ENGINE, it's some minor tweaks. Mainly the integrated exhaust manifold which is not something "fun" or "good" when it comes to aftermarket tuning.

I have done lots of engine work (well, I've paid for lots of engine work ) in the past and actually done some major tuning etc so I maybe have a different level of expectations as to what constitutes different engines etc.

For example the N55 engine in my M135i isn't quite the same as that in the earlier M2's, but it's "basically" the same. Different oil pump, some small internal tweaks, etc Same case here.
It's still a BMW engine.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/...


It's a nice car, but not a tuners wet dream, that IS MARKETING HYPE (obviously).

it's not built to be that, it's built using existing BMW technology to meet emissions / etc and to try and make money.. Infact that's exactly why they moved to the integrated manifold.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 24th November 19:02

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 24th November 19:11

[Mr Tidy]

Well it doesn't seem to have gone down very well with any Toyota fans!

But as has already been said, without doing it with BMW as a joint venture there would be no new Supra.

Anyway as a Z4 Coupe owner I'm glad it exists, seeing as BMW are only building a Roadster.

[kurt535]

RIP Supra

[DanStirl]

Seems that the overall reaction is very similar to each new generation of 911.
Lots of moaning from fans of the old one but goes on to be a sales success...

[thelostboy]

Not convinced it's sold well over here at all. I certainly haven't seen any on the road, whereas I have at least seen a couple of Z4s.

Can someone explain the negativity though? The old Supra was a big, fat grand tourer with potential. A lot of the big power cars used slushmatic autos; were they ever a real driver's car?

I grew up on Gran Turismo and Fast and The Furious so am biased towards Jap stuff, but was still aware - even when I was 16 - that the Supra was a one trick pony - it was all about the engine.

[blue al]

Is it only old gits like me that think this supra is a bad copy of a Marcus mantula?
Especially from rear 3/4 view.
Irrespective of the bmw engine involvement the old shape of the previous Supra complete with wing seems to be better resolved than the 2019 version.
I'm sure they would sell far more if it were less visually challenging.

Yet I'm still pleased they made it and perhaps enough will buy it to make it a sales success, the world is a better place with more Japanese sports cars, MR2 mk4 please make it happen.

[Uggers]

I don't buy it that Toyota and the resources that it can muster couldn't have made their own flagship sports coupe. A manufacturer that is bigger than it was when it had the Celica, MR2 and Supra in its lineup. Maybe it's because they feel it would have damaged Lexus LX sales?

When the MK4 Supra came out, it looked at that time truly exotic. Nothing else for the money like it on the road.

In that respects I can understand Toyota fans disappointment that the vast majority of the car is Z4.
There is nothing wrong with a Z4 and it obviously can be tuned effectively.

But Toyota could have put more effort into their own creation and produced a GTR beater. Rather than a fairly cynical take on the Supra brand by reskinning a 2 seater BMW and recalibrating the characteristics.

That car I'm sure drives great and can be tuned to hell like the original, but it shouldn't wear the Supra name on the back.

[sladeburn]

Man, the pistonheads comments are always chock full of grumpy old gits stuck in the past.

[Onehp]

Augustus Windsock said:

If I were able to buy one outright I’m thinking about all of the other comments bandied about on PH around tuning a new car like this, i.e would I potentially wish to invalidate my new car warranty and would Litchfield cough up for any damage or failures (I’m guessing there’s lots of corporate lawyer small print that means it would have to be proved that the tuning applied to the vehicle is proved to be responsible for the damage...?)

That is important to understand, you always tune on your own risk. Pay to play. Those going for tuning to save money on a more powerful car or similarly counting on cheating the warranty, are in it on the wrong premises and risk getting bitten hard if it all backfires.

JDM cars like the Supra are typically tuned hard because their power was historically capped and the owners want to have a Japanese car, not because they couldn't affort to buy a more powerful car from another country...

Edited by Onehp on Monday 25th November 12:03

[xjay1337]

Uggers said:

I don't buy it that Toyota and the resources that it can muster couldn't have made their own flagship sports coupe. A manufacturer that is bigger than it was when it had the Celica, MR2 and Supra in its lineup. Maybe it's because they feel it would have damaged Lexus LX sales?

When the MK4 Supra came out, it looked at that time truly exotic. Nothing else for the money like it on the road.

In that respects I can understand Toyota fans disappointment that the vast majority of the car is Z4.
There is nothing wrong with a Z4 and it obviously can be tuned effectively.

But Toyota could have put more effort into their own creation and produced a GTR beater. Rather than a fairly cynical take on the Supra brand by reskinning a 2 seater BMW and recalibrating the characteristics.

That car I'm sure drives great and can be tuned to hell like the original, but it shouldn't wear the Supra name on the back.

I think design wise it's quite nice, aside from small details (one of which is the rear badging.. what a joke).

I think many people now wanted a "Supra" , another car developed ground up in the same way the older Supras were, but people are colder to it because it literally is a re-shelled BMW (despite what some will say).

It's like the Triumph Acclaim / Honda Ballade


The new Supra could, and should, have looked like this :




Some amount of effort could have been put in to at least hiding the OBVIOUS high level of BMW involvement.
Even if it's a case of removing some BMW stamps.
I thought Toyota were just plodding along but they are making hundreds of billions of $$ from my research, they could have done more development, but again I suspect they just wanted to cash in on the opportunity.


I understand using the BMW engine, that's fine, it's a proven engine which excellent power.

I think they should have offered a manual version, although I know many would not buy it (myself included!)

They should have developed their own in car entertainment system, similar to the one in the Nissan GTR perhaps, with lots of gauges / dials / graphs for "performance driving".

The steering wheel, that you interface with constantly, is horrible and uses the BMW switch gear from 2 generations of car ago, this could have been done cheaply by Toyota




Here is 2012 Bmw 3 series.

Actually on further looking it appears to be exactly the same wheel frame as the horrible older BMW wheel!!!



The design is a bit half assed, you wouldn't automatically it was "the new Supra" if you didn't know. The pictures above I think are much more a modern interpretation. Given that was done by one guy in a few hours on Photoshop you really do expect the teams at Toyota to have done better.
Clearly very little enthusiast input was taken while "developing" this car.

I would personally have the Z40i and put an LSD in it, and enjoy the wind rushing past my one remaining hair.

Edited by xjay1337 on Monday 25th November 12:14

Edited by xjay1337 on Monday 25th November 12:15

[Duncan Lang]

I've actually got a GR Supra so here are my thoughts after 5000 miles and stage 1 tuning.

- They are great cars to drive and live with.
- I'd planned a manual conversion but the auto is so good, I'm now not going to bother.
- 300 were offered for sale this year. All sold but the majority have not yet been delivered, that's why they aren't a common sight on the road.
- The engine has a number of minor but significant changes.
- A Garage-D engine and gearbox remap gets you 400hp and a punchier gear change which makes it a lot of fun to drive.
- 4 or 5 months after launch there are already 1000+ hp B58 Supra engines out there.
- Don't believe everything they tell you on Top Gear. Yes, it feels a bit like you're sitting in a BMW but if you've sat in a Toyota recently, you'll know that's not a bad thing! BMW don't make any of the parts and neither do Toyota. Like every vehicle, the parts are made by the supply base and stamped with the OEMs logo. This has been the case for decades! So the "iT's a bMw!" thing is nonsense anyway. Just enjoy what is probably one of the last wave of IC sports cars we'll see before this website is renamed 'Commutator heads'.

Edited to add: Actual real people (not internet car bores) absolutely love it. People wave, thumbs up, take pictures, ask questions wherever you stop. I've been quite surprised.

Edited by Duncan Lang on Monday 25th November 12:27

[C7 JFW]

I think i'll hold my opinion back until I drive one.

The Mk4 is a beast, mainly because it was SO tunable and kept exotics honest.

The mk5 now benefits from BMW's chassis expertise and a very tunable engine.

I'm not completely sold on the front end but I rather like the back. It definitely needs the spoiler but other than that, it's got a straight six, turbos and a rear diff.

I saw the car in person recently and I wasn't wowed, mainly as these cars were on air and looked a bit rubbish. But give me one with some serious power and I'd definitely be interested.

[sidesauce]

sladeburn said:

Man, the pistonheads comments are always chock full of grumpy old gits stuck in the past.

I fully agree.

[stevejbailey]

I own one of the new Supras. It's a great car. I've also owned a Z4m coupe, a Z3m coupe, a TVR Sagaris and a Lotus Elise. I don't care that it's based around a Z4. It's a car and, not only that, it's a great car. Stop droning on about it's not really a Toyota.

[FA57REN]

Mr Tidy said:

But as has already been said, without doing it with BMW as a joint venture there would be no new Supra.

Toyota have had combined gross profits of $45 billion in the past two years. That's money they had left over after R&D, salaries, capex, advertising, recalls .. and before tax

If they'd paid for a ground-up Supra they might actually have come out with more net profit due to reduction in tax liability.