RE: Gordon Murray Group unveils five-year plan
Discussion
A £300m investment on cars that are produced in max volumes of 100 units each? Will those numbers ever work? How many staff do they have?
At the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious, if they managed to make say six distinct models (which seems overly ambitious), they would need to make £500,000 profit on each vehicle sold to cover the initial investment. Anyone who actually knows how much these sorts of ventures cost care to comment? I'd assume there's not a big enough market to make this work.
It sounds like the 100 T.50 run has only just managed to sell out, and that Gordon has been thinking about doing that car for a decade or more. Not sure the market will support several other more hastily-designed successors at similar prices. What will be their unique selling point? Isn't the T.50 supposedly as good as they can make it? What would he change? I'm not sure Gordon will want to be going into other entire segments and design hyper-SUVs. (Much as it is fun to imagine what a GMA Design Urus-equivalent would look like.)
At the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious, if they managed to make say six distinct models (which seems overly ambitious), they would need to make £500,000 profit on each vehicle sold to cover the initial investment. Anyone who actually knows how much these sorts of ventures cost care to comment? I'd assume there's not a big enough market to make this work.
It sounds like the 100 T.50 run has only just managed to sell out, and that Gordon has been thinking about doing that car for a decade or more. Not sure the market will support several other more hastily-designed successors at similar prices. What will be their unique selling point? Isn't the T.50 supposedly as good as they can make it? What would he change? I'm not sure Gordon will want to be going into other entire segments and design hyper-SUVs. (Much as it is fun to imagine what a GMA Design Urus-equivalent would look like.)
jason61c said:
The value isn't in the cars they sell, it'll be the systems and components that they develop, you only have to read the statement to see that. The cars are a showcase for those technologies.
to whom? A bit like iStream? ie try and sell people the stuff they already do?A system of component for a car that has a production volume of 100 is basically, utterly useless to anyone unless they too are making 100 of their car, and if they arem chances are they want to do that sort of thing themselves to add value and protect their IPR.......
Manic Street Sleeper said:
ManyMotors said:
Why blow money on a new headquarters? Put that into product! There are plenty of places to rent for less.
Were you thinking of Ebbw Vale ? 
ghost83 said:
Apart from the Mclaren F1 I’m not a huge fan if I’m been honest I don’t like the look of the T50
But I respect his philosophy
But if you look at the photo look how small it is compared to Murray !But I respect his philosophy
T in the name stands for Tardis as it can fit that lanky bloke.
I think it looks great, but who cares if it fits on British roads,
This is just milking the cow in comparison on past deeds......
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/lamborghini/sian
£2.6m for mutton dressed up as Lambo.
That or a GM?
And this is the guy who did the Rocket don't forget. I can see the doubting Thomas' are strong on this thread.
Edited by Clive Milk on Tuesday 11th May 21:41
blade7 said:
This all about Murrays inflated ego isn't it? The way he keeps referencing the F1, anyone would think it was all his own work. Now after 25 years he's going to beat Porsche, McLaren, Pagani and Ferrari at their own game apparently. What has he been doing for a quarter of a century?
That's a typical Pistonheads drink boiling water piss ice cubes response from an armchair jockey ...I'm going to join the people saying they found this a little disappointing.
I'm absolutely sure that every car they make, if successful, will be an exceptional thing in it's class. But coming from a man who keeps telling us he champions cars to be driven, this seems a little hypocritical. Sure, a few of those hundred might do more than a couple of thousand miles a year, but the others will be too valuable to drive much, or part of collections so large the owners just don't have the time to really use them much.
Oh well, I'm not wealthy enough for him or his company to care about what I think. It's just sad when I read news that I feel like I should be excited about and I'm just...not.
I'm absolutely sure that every car they make, if successful, will be an exceptional thing in it's class. But coming from a man who keeps telling us he champions cars to be driven, this seems a little hypocritical. Sure, a few of those hundred might do more than a couple of thousand miles a year, but the others will be too valuable to drive much, or part of collections so large the owners just don't have the time to really use them much.
Oh well, I'm not wealthy enough for him or his company to care about what I think. It's just sad when I read news that I feel like I should be excited about and I'm just...not.
It is disappointing, although I understand it.
GMD isn't selling anything to anyone - there's too much 'brand capital' given away by doing so.
Project 2 is incredibly cynical - remove all the elements that are "Gordon Murray trademarks", and flog it off for a 40% discount.
Perhaps it's me getting older, and more cynical and jaded - but I think I'm now at the point where I'm in awe of the history (the F1 is still the absolutely pinnacle of desire for me, the Rocket I adore, the racing cars are 'emotive').
The T.50 I hugely admire.
The company, I can't be arsed with.
GMD isn't selling anything to anyone - there's too much 'brand capital' given away by doing so.
Project 2 is incredibly cynical - remove all the elements that are "Gordon Murray trademarks", and flog it off for a 40% discount.
Perhaps it's me getting older, and more cynical and jaded - but I think I'm now at the point where I'm in awe of the history (the F1 is still the absolutely pinnacle of desire for me, the Rocket I adore, the racing cars are 'emotive').
The T.50 I hugely admire.
The company, I can't be arsed with.
oedipus said:
This seems a partial account of what I read elsewhere. I got the sense that GMA would be doing the halo stuff but that would be underpinned and generate mass market consultancy involvement.
He's been trying for well over a decade to sell his designs/production processes/etc.None have come of anything. He's doing it the wrong way round.
Lotus (and others) are very quiet about their consultancy clients. GMD screams about what they've designed, then want someone else to pick it up and sell it after they've gained all the marketing capital.
Max_Torque said:
jason61c said:
The value isn't in the cars they sell, it'll be the systems and components that they develop, you only have to read the statement to see that. The cars are a showcase for those technologies.
to whom? A bit like iStream? ie try and sell people the stuff they already do?A system of component for a car that has a production volume of 100 is basically, utterly useless to anyone unless they too are making 100 of their car, and if they arem chances are they want to do that sort of thing themselves to add value and protect their IPR.......
How you would compete with the current large companies doing consultancy or offering design/analysis/engineering services I dont know, I work in this area and I wouldnt send my work to them until they had much more experience.
BarcelonaLewis said:
I also think setting 'premium' and 'exclusivity' at the top of your list of qualities is unattractive (to me, admittedly someone far too poor for all this) as they should be byproducts of the other aims rather than things you deliberately set out for - IMO.
blade7 said:
This all about Murrays inflated ego isn't it? The way he keeps referencing the F1, anyone would think it was all his own work. Now after 25 years he's going to beat Porsche, McLaren, Pagani and Ferrari at their own game apparently. What has he been doing for a quarter of a century?
This ^^^^
Not exactly the sales success it was meant to be. Just look at the style. Why aren't we all driving around in a Gordon Murray T25? I meant, it'd be like a mini F1, wouldn't it?
wab172uk said:
This ^^^^
Not exactly the sales success it was meant to be. Just look at the style. Why aren't we all driving around in a Gordon Murray T25? I meant, it'd be like a mini F1, wouldn't it?
The look doesn't define the drive. If it's essentially a 'practical Rocket', which is exactly what it appeared to be - then I'd bite their hands off...
skidskid said:
Max_Torque said:
jason61c said:
The value isn't in the cars they sell, it'll be the systems and components that they develop, you only have to read the statement to see that. The cars are a showcase for those technologies.
to whom? A bit like iStream? ie try and sell people the stuff they already do?A system of component for a car that has a production volume of 100 is basically, utterly useless to anyone unless they too are making 100 of their car, and if they arem chances are they want to do that sort of thing themselves to add value and protect their IPR.......
How you would compete with the current large companies doing consultancy or offering design/analysis/engineering services I dont know, I work in this area and I wouldnt send my work to them until they had much more experience.
GMG (the group) seems to consist, or will consist, of:
- GMA (i.e. automotive), maker of the T50 and other limited production vehicles that people in this thread are complaining about.
- GMD (i.e design) that is developing a B-segment EV platform/vehicle and building a demonstrator fleet. The intention appears to licence the IP to others, but bizarrely this is described (by GM in Autocar) as more like a 'franchise' model than a licensing model, because potential customers can er...prod a prototype before investing.
- A consultancy part to reduce weight and complexity from vehicles and manufacturing processes
- An electronics division that will sell and/or develop EV powertrain components for other OEMs
- A manufacturing part to build vehicle 'frames' for GMA
So. a mixture of a vehicle manufacturer, a supplier, a consultancy and an IP licensing company.
Has rather a whiff of over-optimism and complacent investors.
He has the site, he has the planning, this is not another TVR smoke and mirrors scenario spending gullible subsidy money and little else.
The ex BOC headquarters is clearly a legacy establishment he wants to leave behind, a technology hub for future generations, he came from nothing, for years he and his wife survived on little, and I imagine his kids wont have been lavished with cash either, so he is ploughing his wealth into this instead.
GMD has been around at the old F1Ferrari Shalford building since he left Mclaren, well staffed for over 20 years, you don't simply finance such a set up just with your redundancy cheque, customers have been using their services throughout that time as a consultancy, much like the work Lotus also does for the OEMs, the vast majority of which stays under the radar.
The GMD badged cars will just be the public face of the set up, the real long term work will continue to be carried out by his dedicated and growing team well after he has gone.
The usual suspects always pop up on threads related to Murray, tall poppy syndrome from those that have achieved little of note themselves.
The ex BOC headquarters is clearly a legacy establishment he wants to leave behind, a technology hub for future generations, he came from nothing, for years he and his wife survived on little, and I imagine his kids wont have been lavished with cash either, so he is ploughing his wealth into this instead.
GMD has been around at the old F1Ferrari Shalford building since he left Mclaren, well staffed for over 20 years, you don't simply finance such a set up just with your redundancy cheque, customers have been using their services throughout that time as a consultancy, much like the work Lotus also does for the OEMs, the vast majority of which stays under the radar.
The GMD badged cars will just be the public face of the set up, the real long term work will continue to be carried out by his dedicated and growing team well after he has gone.
The usual suspects always pop up on threads related to Murray, tall poppy syndrome from those that have achieved little of note themselves.
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