RE: Gavan Kershaw on Lotus Emira | PH Meets

[Matt_T]

Considering that Lotus is owned by Geely & Proton, and there is an existing tie-up with Toyota for engines, what was the motivaton for using Mercedes Benz units for this?

Surely Geely would have preferred to take a 4 cyl engine from Volvo and have Lotus develop this in-house? Or is it simply becasie the M-B unit produces c.400 bhp off the shelf whereas a Volvo/Proton lump would require investment / approval to get it to 400 bhp?

Edited by Matt_T on Thursday 8th July 14:00

[CraigyMc]

Matt_T said:

Considering that Lotus is owned by Geely & Proton, and there is an existing tie-up with Toyota for engines, what was the motivaton for using Mercedes Benz units for this?

Surely Geely would have preferred to take a 4 cyl engine from Volvo and develop this in-house? Or is it simply becasie the M-B unit produces c.400 bhp off the shelf whereas a Volvo/Proton lump would require investment / approval to get it to 400 bhp?

Geely have a tie-in with M-B for the Smart brand (a 50/50 jv to develop & manufacture small powertrains).
It's likely that Volvo will wind up using the small engines that JV will develop.
Geely own about 10% of Daimler stock by the way -- they are the largest single shareholder of Daimler.

[Rumblestripe]

Works for me, a nicely balanced design.

[Shnozz]

CraigyMc said:

Has anyone seen an Emira with an open boot yet?

No, nor behind the seats for the luggage. Envisaging it to be the same as the Evora (hopefully) which was liveable, albeit needed to use a few softshell bags rather than cases like I can in the Aston. To be fair though, I had rear seats in my Evora so if its flat bottomed storage in the Emira, hopefully you can shelve 2 suitcases behind the seats, even if they are only hand luggage sized ones. Would be nice to be able to tour in it.

[CABC]

[Shnozz]

CABC said:

Thanks for that - looks similar to Evora. Any shots behind seats?

[Olivera]

CraigyMc said:

The £60K car uses a mass-producted M-B M139 motor which while high-tech in terms of development isn't actually all that expensive because the parts are all made in huge numbers and most of it isn't that special. Lotus have developed their own intake and exhaust for it (to fit to the car), along with their own maps for the motor and gearbox, hence the odd 360bhp number against the M-B A45 at 380bhp and the M-B A45S at 416bhp from the same engine.

The Toyota V6 is expensive/special because of the supercharger, the rest being more or less typical Camry bits (and the gearbox is Avensis and RAV4-spec). The supercharger makes the motor more of a hand-built thing. In the Emira it may or may not come with some fancy exhaust on the later/faster models (Titanium was available at the end of Exige production, for a price, for example).

Have you made most of this up? The M139 isn't mass produced, it's an AMG engine so only made in Affalterbach, via the 'one man one engine' policy. It's also currently only present in the relatively low volume A45. It's the Toyota V6 that's the mass produced and rather antiquated engine, being made since 2005 for millions of Toyotas.

[Matt_T]

CraigyMc said:

Matt_T said:

Considering that Lotus is owned by Geely & Proton, and there is an existing tie-up with Toyota for engines, what was the motivaton for using Mercedes Benz units for this?

Surely Geely would have preferred to take a 4 cyl engine from Volvo and develop this in-house? Or is it simply becasie the M-B unit produces c.400 bhp off the shelf whereas a Volvo/Proton lump would require investment / approval to get it to 400 bhp?

Geely have a tie-in with M-B for the Smart brand (a 50/50 jv to develop & manufacture small powertrains).
It's likely that Volvo will wind up using the small engines that JV will develop.
Geely own about 10% of Daimler stock by the way -- they are the largest single shareholder of Daimler.

That makes some sense... I had forgotten that Geely had a stake in Daimler. However I still feel that it's a missed opportunity to add kudos to a Volvo engine. Volvo have invested hugely in a 4-cyl future and are getting 450hp from a 4 cyl with hybrid turbo tech.

It also feels confusing that with all the technology and invetsment in the Volvo / Proton / Lync & Co / Polestar brands, there is no clear pull through to the Emira of the technology.

[anonymous-user]

I can only salute any car that still has hydraulic steering. It's amazing that there is anyone left that would still even fight for this. Well done.

If I was being picky, I'd have designed the car around 17" wheels and had it as light as an Alpine, but given that the target market likes weighty toys and sound deadening and over-sized wheels, this is about as good as one could do nowadays.

Very cool car

[Mutton]

Olivera said:

CraigyMc said:

The £60K car uses a mass-producted M-B M139 motor which while high-tech in terms of development isn't actually all that expensive because the parts are all made in huge numbers and most of it isn't that special. Lotus have developed their own intake and exhaust for it (to fit to the car), along with their own maps for the motor and gearbox, hence the odd 360bhp number against the M-B A45 at 380bhp and the M-B A45S at 416bhp from the same engine.

The Toyota V6 is expensive/special because of the supercharger, the rest being more or less typical Camry bits (and the gearbox is Avensis and RAV4-spec). The supercharger makes the motor more of a hand-built thing. In the Emira it may or may not come with some fancy exhaust on the later/faster models (Titanium was available at the end of Exige production, for a price, for example).

Have you made most of this up? The M139 isn't mass produced, it's an AMG engine so only made in Affalterbach, via the 'one man one engine' policy. It's also currently only present in the relatively low volume A45. It's the Toyota V6 that's the mass produced and rather antiquated engine, being made since 2005 for millions of Toyotas.

Yep, the AMG engines are built individually rather than down a production line. Below video shows the process and the almost lab-like conditions they are built in. This engine would be my choice if I bought an Emira as there's also a lot of tuning potential there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mpl3vij0-g

[CraigyMc]

Olivera said:

CraigyMc said:

The £60K car uses a mass-producted M-B M139 motor which while high-tech in terms of development isn't actually all that expensive because the parts are all made in huge numbers and most of it isn't that special. Lotus have developed their own intake and exhaust for it (to fit to the car), along with their own maps for the motor and gearbox, hence the odd 360bhp number against the M-B A45 at 380bhp and the M-B A45S at 416bhp from the same engine.

The Toyota V6 is expensive/special because of the supercharger, the rest being more or less typical Camry bits (and the gearbox is Avensis and RAV4-spec). The supercharger makes the motor more of a hand-built thing. In the Emira it may or may not come with some fancy exhaust on the later/faster models (Titanium was available at the end of Exige production, for a price, for example).

Have you made most of this up? The M139 isn't mass produced, it's an AMG engine so only made in Affalterbach, via the 'one man one engine' policy. It's also currently only present in the relatively low volume A45. It's the Toyota V6 that's the mass produced and rather antiquated engine, being made since 2005 for millions of Toyotas.

The M139 (and its predecessor, the M133) is in the:

• A45 / A45 S
• CLA A45 / A45 S
• GLA A45 / A45S

Sure, they are assembled by one person, as opposed to by several people working on a line. The measurements and so on are then done robotically as the motor moves down the production line on its robotic trolley. None of that detracts from the fact that AMG make thousands of them a year - it is a mass produced motor in a factory that has 1700 staff, of which about 100 put the engines together.
As an aside, AMG don't only make motors in Affalterbach. They also make engines in Mannheim (it's where their V12s are built).

By comparison to that, toyota didn't fit the supercharger to their V6 (they paid for Harrop to develop it, then canned the project it was destined for) so... nope.
Didn't make any of that up.
There are definitely a lot more mass-produced AMG A45-spec motors (M133/M139) in the world than handbuilt supercharged Toyota V6 2GR-FEs.

If I'm wrong, educate me.

Edited by CraigyMc on Thursday 8th July 15:45

[the_hood]

When I saw the main pic I thought it was a Ferrari.

[Olivera]

CraigyMc said:

The M139 (and its predecessor, the M133) is in the:

• A45 / A45 S
• CLA A45 / A45 S
• GLA A45 / A45S

Sure, they are assembled by one person, as opposed to by several people working on a line. The measurements and so on are then done robotically as the motor moves down the production line on its robotic trolley. None of that detracts from the fact that AMG make thousands of them a year - it is a mass produced motor in a factory that has 1700 staff, of which about 100 put the engines together.
As an aside, AMG don't only make motors in Affalterbach. They also make engines in Mannheim (it's where their V12s are built).

By comparison to that, toyota didn't fit the supercharger to their V6 (they paid for Harrop to develop it, then canned the project it was destined for) so... nope.
Didn't make any of that up.
There are definitely a lot more mass-produced AMG A45-spec motors (M133/M139) in the world than handbuilt supercharged Toyota V6 2GR-FEs.

If I'm wrong, educated me.

'handbuilt supercharged Toyota V6 2GR-FEs' . Sorry but bolting a supercharger onto an otherwise stock and unopened extremely mass produced Toyota V6 doesn't make it a handbuilt engine.

By any reasonable measure the AMG M139 is the much lower volume and technically more advanced engine.

[MDMetal]

CraigyMc said:

MDMetal said:

Has there been any info on the V6 pricing?

The manual V6 first edition is ~£85K, and will arrive before any AMG Emiras, which are the cars that will start at £60K.

?! the V6 engine is 25,000 extra?! geeze thats a buzzkill

[Caddyshack]

CraigyMc said:

Caddyshack said:

CraigyMc said:

MDMetal said:

Has there been any info on the V6 pricing?

The manual V6 first edition is ~£85K, and will arrive before any AMG Emiras, which are the cars that will start at £60K.

At 85k I'm oot. I wouldn't want a turboed engine in one.

You can apparently wait until after the first editions are sold and get a V6 later for about £75K (tbc), but you'll likely be waiting until the end of 2022 or early 2023 before that happens, if ever.

The £60K car uses a mass-producted M-B M139 motor which while high-tech in terms of development isn't actually all that expensive because the parts are all made in huge numbers and most of it isn't that special. Lotus have developed their own intake and exhaust for it (to fit to the car), along with their own maps for the motor and gearbox, hence the odd 360bhp number against the M-B A45 at 380bhp and the M-B A45S at 416bhp from the same engine.

The Toyota V6 is expensive/special because of the supercharger, the rest being more or less typical Camry bits (and the gearbox is Avensis and RAV4-spec). The supercharger makes the motor more of a hand-built thing. In the Emira it may or may not come with some fancy exhaust on the later/faster models (Titanium was available at the end of Exige production, for a price, for example).

Thank you for the insight. It is a shame they do not offer the lower spec in normally aspiirated V6 but I expect it just does not make enough power.

I agree with other people on here, I think there's quite a lot of scope for taking weight out of the car to make a more hardcore version after launch (fixed lightweight sports seats, lithium battery, titanium exhaust). Likely they will offer other things like carbon roof and so on, and I'm saying that purely because they've done it before on their other cars.

[Vee12V]

Matt_T said:

CraigyMc said:

Matt_T said:

Considering that Lotus is owned by Geely & Proton, and there is an existing tie-up with Toyota for engines, what was the motivaton for using Mercedes Benz units for this?

Surely Geely would have preferred to take a 4 cyl engine from Volvo and develop this in-house? Or is it simply becasie the M-B unit produces c.400 bhp off the shelf whereas a Volvo/Proton lump would require investment / approval to get it to 400 bhp?

Geely have a tie-in with M-B for the Smart brand (a 50/50 jv to develop & manufacture small powertrains).
It's likely that Volvo will wind up using the small engines that JV will develop.
Geely own about 10% of Daimler stock by the way -- they are the largest single shareholder of Daimler.

That makes some sense... I had forgotten that Geely had a stake in Daimler. However I still feel that it's a missed opportunity to add kudos to a Volvo engine. Volvo have invested hugely in a 4-cyl future and are getting 450hp from a 4 cyl with hybrid turbo tech.

Have you actually ever driven one of the recent Volvo 4 pots? They don't feel refined, have no character what so ever, don't feel rev happy, aren't particularly frugal. Just nothing about them that would make them a fit candidate.

[CraigyMc]

Vee12V said:

Matt_T said:

CraigyMc said:

Matt_T said:

Considering that Lotus is owned by Geely & Proton, and there is an existing tie-up with Toyota for engines, what was the motivaton for using Mercedes Benz units for this?

Surely Geely would have preferred to take a 4 cyl engine from Volvo and develop this in-house? Or is it simply becasie the M-B unit produces c.400 bhp off the shelf whereas a Volvo/Proton lump would require investment / approval to get it to 400 bhp?

Geely have a tie-in with M-B for the Smart brand (a 50/50 jv to develop & manufacture small powertrains).
It's likely that Volvo will wind up using the small engines that JV will develop.
Geely own about 10% of Daimler stock by the way -- they are the largest single shareholder of Daimler.

That makes some sense... I had forgotten that Geely had a stake in Daimler. However I still feel that it's a missed opportunity to add kudos to a Volvo engine. Volvo have invested hugely in a 4-cyl future and are getting 450hp from a 4 cyl with hybrid turbo tech.

Have you actually ever driven one of the recent Volvo 4 pots? They don't feel refined, have no character what so ever, don't feel rev happy, aren't particularly frugal. Just nothing about them that would make them a fit candidate.

Reminds me of the experience I had on two consecutive rental cars a few years ago, both V40s -- a D2 and a D4. The D4 was delightful, as diesels go. Easy power. The D2 is the only car in the last few years I've had to change down gear in for hills. It's a PSA/Ford lump though, not a true Volvo engine.

[xcentric]

Does anyone have any insights into whether/when they may do a convertible version? I assume that with the bonded chassis that the roof is only marginally contributing to the structural stiffness, so from an engineering perspective it's easy. Choosing a roof mechanism/tent approach is perhaps the most contentious, but not unsolvable. And it's very Lotus to have a soft-top.....

I have deposit down (note to self, must tell wife) - and like the looks - fancy the V6 but suspect the 4 pot with DCT and (shock, horror) touring setup is the best bet for value for money daily driver usage.

[Equus]

xcentric said:

Does anyone have any insights into whether/when they may do a convertible version? I assume that with the bonded chassis that the roof is only marginally contributing to the structural stiffness, so from an engineering perspective it's easy.

Assuming the Emira isn't a million miles away from the Evora chassis in terms of basic structural concept...

With the Evora, the roof virtually doubled the stiffness.

Not that 14kNm/degree is to be sniffed at: it's stiffer than the Elise - circa 10kNm/degree - and over twice as stiff as a Mk.1 Mazda MX5, for example (though the latter probably isn't saying much, since the MX5 shudders like a stting spaniel at the slightest sniff of a bumpy road), but chopping the roof of has more than just a marginal effect, it seems.

Edited by Equus on Thursday 8th July 18:48

[IMI A]

Wow I met this fellow at Hethel 1998/1999? He can properly drive I remember being in a 4 wheel drift at 140mph in an Esprit V8 with him. Fantastic car control we were looking at straights through our side windows at times.