RE: Toyota and Yamaha partner on hydrogen V8
Discussion
Hydrogen is less energy efficient than just charging a battery because of the electrolysis, harvesting and compression of the hydrogen. You use electricity to do those things and lose energy in the process, so charging a battery makes more sense.
Where hydrogen makes sense is when it needs to be stored for long periods, where it needs to be delivered to areas where there is no electrical infrastructure, so things like heavy plant machinery.
Having a 30,000PSI pressure vessel is also an issue, as it needs to be very heavy and designed in such a way that if it fails it does not fail explosively. The whole fire risk thing is overblown as hydrogen is lighter than air, so it'll generally float away before it can be ignited. Petrol is worse in this regard.
Personal cars will never go hydrogen, or if they do it'll be fuel cells. All this hydrogen engine stuff is very sadly a dead end. Nobody would like to keep the internal combustion engine more than I would but really any research or excitement in that area is just an act of denial. This technology might work for shipping or heavy plant, maaaybe buses and trucks but not for cars and motorcycles.
Where hydrogen makes sense is when it needs to be stored for long periods, where it needs to be delivered to areas where there is no electrical infrastructure, so things like heavy plant machinery.
Having a 30,000PSI pressure vessel is also an issue, as it needs to be very heavy and designed in such a way that if it fails it does not fail explosively. The whole fire risk thing is overblown as hydrogen is lighter than air, so it'll generally float away before it can be ignited. Petrol is worse in this regard.
Personal cars will never go hydrogen, or if they do it'll be fuel cells. All this hydrogen engine stuff is very sadly a dead end. Nobody would like to keep the internal combustion engine more than I would but really any research or excitement in that area is just an act of denial. This technology might work for shipping or heavy plant, maaaybe buses and trucks but not for cars and motorcycles.
GT9 said:
virgilio said:
I don't understand the obsession with hydrogen ICEs. They are just stupid: given that for daily drivers nothing can beat an EV, and for pistonheads we can just keep using petrol (or synthetic fuels made out of renewables, which are infinitely more practical, efficient and cheaper than H2); why on earth are they trying to to this (apart from Akio Toyoda's fixation on H2 and against EVs)?
Japan is a fairly unique market where hydrogen is potentially viable for passenger cars.The UK, not so much.
otolith said:
What is the result of your analysis of the cost and environmental impact of recycling batteries and fuel cell stacks and tanks from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?
(hydrogen ICEs are a pipe dream)
I don't know where you've been but hyrdogen ICEs already exist. Once again, batteries aren't the be-all-and-end-all for every single type of vehicle and manufacturers such as JCB and HGV makers are heavily investing in Hydrogen for their larger / long range vehicles.(hydrogen ICEs are a pipe dream)
I hope Toyotas many experts realise what idiots they are after reading this thread!
This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
I just don't see how Hydrogen combustion engines are going to be viable.
Call my cynical, but like Porsche and E-Fuels, it seems they're trying to offer the IDEA of a credible alterative to EVs as a way to lobby for an delay in the banning of ICE cars.
Looking at Otolith's Maths, so it needs 1kg of Hydrogen to travel 17 miles, a 1Kg of liquid Hydrogen has a volume of 14 litres according to google, That RC F has a 66 litre tank, assuming Toyota could match the capacity of a simple petrol tank with the sort of thing that can safely hold Liquid hydrogen (seems unlikely), it would have a range of about 80 miles.
So you end up with a heavier ICE that has a very short range, has no infrastructure to refuel it - sounds familiar. They could have a greater range, but then it would need a huge tank and weigh a lot, lot more than current cars - sounds even more familiar.
Like EVs, you can argue that, really they're not emissions free, especially so with ICE Hydrogen Cars as they emit NOx, they just shift the pollution to the most tax efficient part of the supply chain, but refining Hydrogen is less efficient than creating electricity.
IMHO the only way Hydrogen ICE cars have a future, is if an efficient way to refine Hydrogen is discovered, making Fuel Cell cars more viable, if that happens then they might work for supercars and things like than when range and running costs aren't much of a concern.
Call my cynical, but like Porsche and E-Fuels, it seems they're trying to offer the IDEA of a credible alterative to EVs as a way to lobby for an delay in the banning of ICE cars.
Looking at Otolith's Maths, so it needs 1kg of Hydrogen to travel 17 miles, a 1Kg of liquid Hydrogen has a volume of 14 litres according to google, That RC F has a 66 litre tank, assuming Toyota could match the capacity of a simple petrol tank with the sort of thing that can safely hold Liquid hydrogen (seems unlikely), it would have a range of about 80 miles.
So you end up with a heavier ICE that has a very short range, has no infrastructure to refuel it - sounds familiar. They could have a greater range, but then it would need a huge tank and weigh a lot, lot more than current cars - sounds even more familiar.
Like EVs, you can argue that, really they're not emissions free, especially so with ICE Hydrogen Cars as they emit NOx, they just shift the pollution to the most tax efficient part of the supply chain, but refining Hydrogen is less efficient than creating electricity.
IMHO the only way Hydrogen ICE cars have a future, is if an efficient way to refine Hydrogen is discovered, making Fuel Cell cars more viable, if that happens then they might work for supercars and things like than when range and running costs aren't much of a concern.
MarJay said:
Hydrogen is less energy efficient than just charging a battery because of the electrolysis, harvesting and compression of the hydrogen. You use electricity to do those things and lose energy in the process, so charging a battery makes more sense.
Where hydrogen makes sense is when it needs to be stored for long periods, where it needs to be delivered to areas where there is no electrical infrastructure, so things like heavy plant machinery.
Having a 30,000PSI pressure vessel is also an issue, as it needs to be very heavy and designed in such a way that if it fails it does not fail explosively. The whole fire risk thing is overblown as hydrogen is lighter than air, so it'll generally float away before it can be ignited. Petrol is worse in this regard.
Personal cars will never go hydrogen, or if they do it'll be fuel cells. All this hydrogen engine stuff is very sadly a dead end. Nobody would like to keep the internal combustion engine more than I would but really any research or excitement in that area is just an act of denial. This technology might work for shipping or heavy plant, maaaybe buses and trucks but not for cars and motorcycles.
Whilst I agree with almost everything you've said, the 'floats away' comment might just hold true in an open space, but it definitely isn't true in an enclosed environment. There are several hundreds-of-pages studies to quantify the risk for tunnels, and none of these look very promising. These sorts of risk assessments are available on the internet if you go looking for them, but generally speaking, the general public are blissfully unaware of the dangers of hydrogen.Where hydrogen makes sense is when it needs to be stored for long periods, where it needs to be delivered to areas where there is no electrical infrastructure, so things like heavy plant machinery.
Having a 30,000PSI pressure vessel is also an issue, as it needs to be very heavy and designed in such a way that if it fails it does not fail explosively. The whole fire risk thing is overblown as hydrogen is lighter than air, so it'll generally float away before it can be ignited. Petrol is worse in this regard.
Personal cars will never go hydrogen, or if they do it'll be fuel cells. All this hydrogen engine stuff is very sadly a dead end. Nobody would like to keep the internal combustion engine more than I would but really any research or excitement in that area is just an act of denial. This technology might work for shipping or heavy plant, maaaybe buses and trucks but not for cars and motorcycles.
This is what happens when a hydrogen leak ignites:
https://cen.acs.org/safety/industrial-safety/Hydro...
"Blast felt 30 km away...."
"While the building filled with flammable vapors, the workers attempted to open the emulsion area to outside air and turn on fans. They were unable to complete these efforts before the building exploded."
Yeah, totally overblown, but not in the way you meant.
mk2 24v said:
Surely the engine in the article pictures is marine use?
Not currently a hot vee engine in Toyota cars is there?
Also appreciate that there are manufacturers looking at alternative fuel sources to just EV though
The original source material is here https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/ie/en/news/tapping-the...Not currently a hot vee engine in Toyota cars is there?
Also appreciate that there are manufacturers looking at alternative fuel sources to just EV though
and the reason for the 8-into-1 is noise (because it sounds good).
whp1983 said:
I hope Toyotas many experts realise what idiots they are after reading this thread!
This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
I don't see anyone saying what they are doing is idiotic, I personally think it's great.This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
Reading about these efforts from Toyota and equating that to everyone in the UK driving hydrogen-powered V8s to the garden centre would however be idiotic.
whp1983 said:
I hope Toyotas many experts realise what idiots they are after reading this thread!
This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
Speaking of having dollars and a sizeable R&D department...This does seem just for racing and it’s partly a marketing exercise as well as a guess.
If you have decent dollars and a sizeable R&D department it would seem foolish not to keep all options open. You do never know what changes in future….
It surely won't have escaped anyone's attention that Tesla are now the worlds most valuable car company. The volume of cars manufactured is neither here nor there; investors have decided to vote with their wallets, after doing (presumably) their due diligence, and this is where we are today.
Hydrogen seems to me to be very much "just a few years away", and has been that way for a long time. In that same timeframe however, EV's have arrived, and turned the car market on its head completely. They're here now, in saleable numbers, with supply chain support, manufacturers warranty, and compete reasonably well against ICE's.
And the thing is, people talk about the national grid, and how clean is the source energy for EV's... it won't be long before there are PV panels supplying much of the source energy, and a sizeable number of people will be able to charge from home for free. The balance is already swinging in that direction, and will only continue to move further in that direction.
Coming back to the R&D discussion, some of you may have seen solid state batteries in the news. There are some big players investing heavily. Bill Gates is behind a pretty big effort here in QuantumScape, along with many partners, including VW.
I just don't see how hydrogen, with the issues identified, and just how far behind the development curve they are, can possibly hope to compete with the EV brigade, who are not just technologically ahead of ICE, but pulling away with increasing speed.
CraigyMc said:
The original source material is here https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/ie/en/news/tapping-the...
and the reason for the 8-into-1 is noise (because it sounds good).
Very nice too and the reason for the 8-into-1 is noise (because it sounds good).
I'm going to assume that's mounted in the middle of that Corolla then?
Bloody good luck to them I say!
Isn't the main point here that Japan has a bit of a power production issue that is relatively unique to them, including the fact that they don't really want to use Nuclear meaning that they will struggle to power a nation of electric cars, whereas Hydrogen slots neatly into their infrastructure.
Japan is and always has been a bit of a galapagos with developing tech. They don't REALLY care what everyone else wants anyway, it's nice if they sell outside of Japan but this will be a Japan focused development.
Japan is and always has been a bit of a galapagos with developing tech. They don't REALLY care what everyone else wants anyway, it's nice if they sell outside of Japan but this will be a Japan focused development.
Clivey said:
otolith said:
What is the result of your analysis of the cost and environmental impact of recycling batteries and fuel cell stacks and tanks from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?
(hydrogen ICEs are a pipe dream)
I don't know where you've been but hyrdogen ICEs already exist. Once again, batteries aren't the be-all-and-end-all for every single type of vehicle and manufacturers such as JCB and HGV makers are heavily investing in Hydrogen for their larger / long range vehicles.(hydrogen ICEs are a pipe dream)
What is a pipe dream is the idea that running road cars on ICEs burning hydrogen is going to happen. It's dubious whether there will be a distribution network for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, because it's dubious that enough people will be willing to put time to fill with energy so far above every other consideration to support such a network. There's an outside chance that the network will be created to service HGVs. To then take that hydrogen - which has been created at a great wastage of energy - and then burn it in 30% efficiency in an ICE rather than a fuel cell is certifiably mental. I don't think there are enough rich, certifiably mental people to support the business model of building them.
Grantstown said:
ddom said:
Here come the Teslarati 
You mean the inevitable ‘Why on Earth would you want anything other than a model 3?’ question! ??Edited by Gorbyrev on Friday 18th February 16:14
fblm said:
big_rob_sydney said:
...
Hydrogen seems to me to be very much "just a few years away", and has been that way for a long time. ...
I'm sure I remember seeing a Hydrogen car on tomorrows world about 40 years ago!Hydrogen seems to me to be very much "just a few years away", and has been that way for a long time. ...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/bmw/bmw-...
As did Mazda
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/mazda/ma...
Now Toyota have done it. It's not rocket science, but it's a sideshow.
Then of course there are the fuel cell cars of which there have been a few. The Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo are the only ones in production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle
I know this is mostly aimed at race cars and makes sense seem as petrol/race fuel isn't going to be viable.
Hydrogen is the better option than EVs IMO apart from how we get Hydrogen currently.
The massive cons for EV's is the range and then how long the battery actually lasts. As we all know the battery life reduces with age. AutoTrader did a piece where Rory got a Leaf and it had lost a large chunk of it's range. Then you have to factor in that you can't let it go to 0% or you are screwed. Not only just because the car won't drive but then nothing else works like the security or tracking system. With a hydrogen car you don't have that problem obviously.
If there were a much cleaner way to get hydrogen which I'm sure they are looking into then it makes more sense as the range is better and you can fill up so much quicker. The way the energy bills are going at the moment it might even turn out to be cheaper.
Either way Hydrogen or Electric is the future for us all.
Hydrogen is the better option than EVs IMO apart from how we get Hydrogen currently.
The massive cons for EV's is the range and then how long the battery actually lasts. As we all know the battery life reduces with age. AutoTrader did a piece where Rory got a Leaf and it had lost a large chunk of it's range. Then you have to factor in that you can't let it go to 0% or you are screwed. Not only just because the car won't drive but then nothing else works like the security or tracking system. With a hydrogen car you don't have that problem obviously.
If there were a much cleaner way to get hydrogen which I'm sure they are looking into then it makes more sense as the range is better and you can fill up so much quicker. The way the energy bills are going at the moment it might even turn out to be cheaper.
Either way Hydrogen or Electric is the future for us all.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff