Glad to see the back of it
Discussion
I've owned loads of risky old barges, but the standout for being utter misery to own was a 2007 W221 Mercedes S600. It felt like the car was fighting me every step of the way to keep it running with everything working, not a fortnight would go by without something breaking and I was relieved to finish every journey without incident. I got rid after a year when the "bullet proof" 5G box crapped itself. If I hadn't been able to DIY the car and spend hours researching the root causes of it's many issues it would have been absolutely ruinously expensive in diagnostic time alone.
The WBAC guy chipped me on loads of petty things and I had to pretend to be sad, stroke my chind and consider my options, but in reality I knew it could never leave that car park under it's own power as it had only just limped the last 100 yards. My heart danced and sang with joy to see the back of it.
For comparison I've been running a 2010 Jaguar XJ Supersport for 6 months, same power output as the Mercedes, it's older now than the Mercedes was when I got it, and every single thing has worked perfectly and in 7,500 miles I've not had the slightest, tiniest issue. In fact of all the barges I've owned the Jaguars have been the least difficult, I did over 100,000 miles in a decade old XJ12 without a single failure or breakdown.
The WBAC guy chipped me on loads of petty things and I had to pretend to be sad, stroke my chind and consider my options, but in reality I knew it could never leave that car park under it's own power as it had only just limped the last 100 yards. My heart danced and sang with joy to see the back of it.
For comparison I've been running a 2010 Jaguar XJ Supersport for 6 months, same power output as the Mercedes, it's older now than the Mercedes was when I got it, and every single thing has worked perfectly and in 7,500 miles I've not had the slightest, tiniest issue. In fact of all the barges I've owned the Jaguars have been the least difficult, I did over 100,000 miles in a decade old XJ12 without a single failure or breakdown.
Oh new Minis, I can have a whine about one of those right now.
My partner has a 2011 one, 100k miles or something, IDK. Anyway it, like so many, leaks coolant. It looked like it was coming from the plastic thermostat housing so I bought one (£60 for a Febi Bilstein) thinking it looked dead easy to change.
It was quite easy, for a 5 input housing the two electrical connectors, under a load of crap, but on removing it one of the connectors is this foot long hard plastic pipe that runs under the inlet manifold to the back of the water pump where it is an interference fit into the back of the pump. It pulled out of the pump but left the end of the brittle plastic pipe behind, because it's plastic and brittle and interference fit only.
It is not possible to reach through the manifold to remove the bits, and very very difficult to get a pick and borescope down there to try and remove them, so you end up removing the entire inlet manifold to remove the debris and also guide in the (not straight) hose for it's interference fit as you carefully tighten down the thermostat to push it home. Oh and an OE pipe is £60 and there are some questions about how well the aftermarket ones fit.
Changing a thermostat became a day of work, £150+ of parts once I bought inlet manifold and throttle body gaskets, and that hose will break on every single Mini you ever remove that thermostat from.
So if anyone was in any doubt it was a BMW, there it is. That's the most BMW thing I've had to fix for a long time.
My partner has a 2011 one, 100k miles or something, IDK. Anyway it, like so many, leaks coolant. It looked like it was coming from the plastic thermostat housing so I bought one (£60 for a Febi Bilstein) thinking it looked dead easy to change.
It was quite easy, for a 5 input housing the two electrical connectors, under a load of crap, but on removing it one of the connectors is this foot long hard plastic pipe that runs under the inlet manifold to the back of the water pump where it is an interference fit into the back of the pump. It pulled out of the pump but left the end of the brittle plastic pipe behind, because it's plastic and brittle and interference fit only.
It is not possible to reach through the manifold to remove the bits, and very very difficult to get a pick and borescope down there to try and remove them, so you end up removing the entire inlet manifold to remove the debris and also guide in the (not straight) hose for it's interference fit as you carefully tighten down the thermostat to push it home. Oh and an OE pipe is £60 and there are some questions about how well the aftermarket ones fit.
Changing a thermostat became a day of work, £150+ of parts once I bought inlet manifold and throttle body gaskets, and that hose will break on every single Mini you ever remove that thermostat from.
So if anyone was in any doubt it was a BMW, there it is. That's the most BMW thing I've had to fix for a long time.
Heaveho said:
Yeah, well, I'll be another to help dispel that myth.
1993 Corrado VR6. Bought after a long and consistently reliable spell of 4 Corolla GTI's. The most unreliable car I hope to ever own. It did pretty much everything they're known for and more, engine out twice in 9 months, bore glazing, door handle failure, seized calipers, porous sump, broken sunroof rails and motor, handbrake cables, abs issues, dry joint in the fuel pump relay causing intermittent hot start, etc. etc.
An endless list of typically German, on the fritz tat that infuriated me after 7 blissful years of processing warranty claims for Lexus ( ie, turning up at work and putting my feet up for 8 hours a day ), and running Japanese performance cars with exemplary reliability.
A side of me was delighted to see the back of it, yet it still remains as an absolutely standout memory of a great handling car, and for that, I miss it. It was a much better drivers car than the Impreza Turbo 2000 that replaced it.
Oh yeah, a dishonourable mention must go the the Fiat 126 BIS that I had for a thankfully brief period, a truly joyless POS so typically unreliably Italian as to be the definitive stereotype for any form of criticism aimed in the direction of said country with regard to an inability to produce a vehicle capable of simply proceeding as and when required.
Ditto to the Corrado VR6 although my list was different to yours! Headgasket and fuses it seemed to be and after a year I’d had enough. Ended up in an Impreza too (via a saxo VTS and Focus). A solid 6 years and 72000 miles in the Scooby with nothing much going wrong. It did like a drink though. 1993 Corrado VR6. Bought after a long and consistently reliable spell of 4 Corolla GTI's. The most unreliable car I hope to ever own. It did pretty much everything they're known for and more, engine out twice in 9 months, bore glazing, door handle failure, seized calipers, porous sump, broken sunroof rails and motor, handbrake cables, abs issues, dry joint in the fuel pump relay causing intermittent hot start, etc. etc.
An endless list of typically German, on the fritz tat that infuriated me after 7 blissful years of processing warranty claims for Lexus ( ie, turning up at work and putting my feet up for 8 hours a day ), and running Japanese performance cars with exemplary reliability.
A side of me was delighted to see the back of it, yet it still remains as an absolutely standout memory of a great handling car, and for that, I miss it. It was a much better drivers car than the Impreza Turbo 2000 that replaced it.
Oh yeah, a dishonourable mention must go the the Fiat 126 BIS that I had for a thankfully brief period, a truly joyless POS so typically unreliably Italian as to be the definitive stereotype for any form of criticism aimed in the direction of said country with regard to an inability to produce a vehicle capable of simply proceeding as and when required.
georgeyboy12345 said:
Quick breakdown (pun intended) of the most hated cars by country from this thread
Swedish - 1
American - 1
Japanese - 2
British - 3
French - 8
German - 21
I’m counting new Minis as German (because they are).
Personally I’d count the WK Jeep Grand Cherokee as German, as it was essentially a re-bodied Mercedes M Class.Swedish - 1
American - 1
Japanese - 2
British - 3
French - 8
German - 21
I’m counting new Minis as German (because they are).
12TS said:
Heaveho said:
Yeah, well, I'll be another to help dispel that myth.
1993 Corrado VR6. Bought after a long and consistently reliable spell of 4 Corolla GTI's. The most unreliable car I hope to ever own. It did pretty much everything they're known for and more, engine out twice in 9 months, bore glazing, door handle failure, seized calipers, porous sump, broken sunroof rails and motor, handbrake cables, abs issues, dry joint in the fuel pump relay causing intermittent hot start, etc. etc.
An endless list of typically German, on the fritz tat that infuriated me after 7 blissful years of processing warranty claims for Lexus ( ie, turning up at work and putting my feet up for 8 hours a day ), and running Japanese performance cars with exemplary reliability.
A side of me was delighted to see the back of it, yet it still remains as an absolutely standout memory of a great handling car, and for that, I miss it. It was a much better drivers car than the Impreza Turbo 2000 that replaced it.
Oh yeah, a dishonourable mention must go the the Fiat 126 BIS that I had for a thankfully brief period, a truly joyless POS so typically unreliably Italian as to be the definitive stereotype for any form of criticism aimed in the direction of said country with regard to an inability to produce a vehicle capable of simply proceeding as and when required.
Ditto to the Corrado VR6 although my list was different to yours! Headgasket and fuses it seemed to be and after a year I’d had enough. Ended up in an Impreza too (via a saxo VTS and Focus). A solid 6 years and 72000 miles in the Scooby with nothing much going wrong. It did like a drink though. 1993 Corrado VR6. Bought after a long and consistently reliable spell of 4 Corolla GTI's. The most unreliable car I hope to ever own. It did pretty much everything they're known for and more, engine out twice in 9 months, bore glazing, door handle failure, seized calipers, porous sump, broken sunroof rails and motor, handbrake cables, abs issues, dry joint in the fuel pump relay causing intermittent hot start, etc. etc.
An endless list of typically German, on the fritz tat that infuriated me after 7 blissful years of processing warranty claims for Lexus ( ie, turning up at work and putting my feet up for 8 hours a day ), and running Japanese performance cars with exemplary reliability.
A side of me was delighted to see the back of it, yet it still remains as an absolutely standout memory of a great handling car, and for that, I miss it. It was a much better drivers car than the Impreza Turbo 2000 that replaced it.
Oh yeah, a dishonourable mention must go the the Fiat 126 BIS that I had for a thankfully brief period, a truly joyless POS so typically unreliably Italian as to be the definitive stereotype for any form of criticism aimed in the direction of said country with regard to an inability to produce a vehicle capable of simply proceeding as and when required.
To add to the German pile-on, mine was a BMW E30 - 318iS. Two door with lots of ‘M’ options. I had been keen on moving ‘up’ from the Japanese cars I had for the past few years, wanting something a bit more ‘classy’/grown up. I read all the reviews, searched around for months till I found one in red that ticked all the boxes. It was about 4 years old, 1 owner, low miles and appeared in excellent condition. Until I started to use it.
It felt well put together - solid feeling, proper thunk when closing the doors. Sadly the actual quality of the experience was very lacking. Chasing water leak after water leak until I had replaced most of the hoses, then a mystery misfire appeared that presented itself usually at motorway speeds and randomly cut power when accelerating. Main dealer couldn’t resolve it, local indy was mistified and Bosch specialists left scratching their heads.
Allied to the driving experience which was a bit, well, underwhelming in reality. Slow steering with lots of armtwirling when the backend inevitably let go at embarassingly low speeds. It was all a bit emperor’s new clothes. With all the problems and the costs that came with them, it had to go. I had it less than a year, and I was relieved to trade it in for a Rover. Less reliable but I still felt a weight lift when I had got shot.
After the Rover I went back to Japanese (and Italian) cars for the next 25 years (I actively avoided German cars) or so and never felt that sense of trepidation again. Until I bought a Cayman. So far it has been totally reliable, but the parts I have had to change based on age (and their cost) I would have never dreamt of on my Nissan…
It felt well put together - solid feeling, proper thunk when closing the doors. Sadly the actual quality of the experience was very lacking. Chasing water leak after water leak until I had replaced most of the hoses, then a mystery misfire appeared that presented itself usually at motorway speeds and randomly cut power when accelerating. Main dealer couldn’t resolve it, local indy was mistified and Bosch specialists left scratching their heads.
Allied to the driving experience which was a bit, well, underwhelming in reality. Slow steering with lots of armtwirling when the backend inevitably let go at embarassingly low speeds. It was all a bit emperor’s new clothes. With all the problems and the costs that came with them, it had to go. I had it less than a year, and I was relieved to trade it in for a Rover. Less reliable but I still felt a weight lift when I had got shot.
After the Rover I went back to Japanese (and Italian) cars for the next 25 years (I actively avoided German cars) or so and never felt that sense of trepidation again. Until I bought a Cayman. So far it has been totally reliable, but the parts I have had to change based on age (and their cost) I would have never dreamt of on my Nissan…
Back in the early 80s I was seduced by a lovely 2 litre Triumph TR7 with Webasto sunroof and Wolfrace alloy wheels. Looked lovely with “only” 35000 miles on the clock. Little did I know what I was in store for.
Early on, hydraulic clutch master cylinder gave up so I refurbished that. Next, heater went icy cold whilst travelling on the motorway, temperature gauge against the upper stop, head gasket blown, alloy head had also warped. Luckily a mechanic friend of my dad got the head skimmed up for me and I reassembled it with new gasket and much swearing. Loads of other niggly faults and various spare parts needed.
The car was obviously offended by my berating it, so shortly after showed its displeasure by the alloy gearbox tail shaft housing cracking all the way round axially and dumping all the oil. Went down to the good old British Leyland parts centre and spoke to the chap behind the counter who I now knew by name and ordered the parts. Removed the gearbox, bell housing etc and rebuilt the whole caboodle.
If you’ve ever tried doing this on your own working outside in March using axle stands and a trolley jack to install the gearbox, plus fitting a new clutch and bell housing you will realise how much hate I now had for this piece of junk.
Soon after in desperation I part-exchanged it for a 1.3 litre Talbot Horizon which was surprisingly reliable but ultimately boring.
Never touched anything British Leyland/Austin Rover/Rover Group again after that, lesson learned and all that.
Still think the TR7 was a lovely shape though !
Early on, hydraulic clutch master cylinder gave up so I refurbished that. Next, heater went icy cold whilst travelling on the motorway, temperature gauge against the upper stop, head gasket blown, alloy head had also warped. Luckily a mechanic friend of my dad got the head skimmed up for me and I reassembled it with new gasket and much swearing. Loads of other niggly faults and various spare parts needed.
The car was obviously offended by my berating it, so shortly after showed its displeasure by the alloy gearbox tail shaft housing cracking all the way round axially and dumping all the oil. Went down to the good old British Leyland parts centre and spoke to the chap behind the counter who I now knew by name and ordered the parts. Removed the gearbox, bell housing etc and rebuilt the whole caboodle.
If you’ve ever tried doing this on your own working outside in March using axle stands and a trolley jack to install the gearbox, plus fitting a new clutch and bell housing you will realise how much hate I now had for this piece of junk.
Soon after in desperation I part-exchanged it for a 1.3 litre Talbot Horizon which was surprisingly reliable but ultimately boring.
Never touched anything British Leyland/Austin Rover/Rover Group again after that, lesson learned and all that.
Still think the TR7 was a lovely shape though !
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse. What an unreliable piece of junk that 1 caring elderly gentleman owner with a full history that was in addition the breakdowns started to rust quite badly in the seams.
A salesman told me I’d hate a Rover 800 after my BMW. He was right and after 10 months it was moved on. Good riddance.
A salesman told me I’d hate a Rover 800 after my BMW. He was right and after 10 months it was moved on. Good riddance.
Edited by Rob 131 Sport on Monday 23 October 06:35
GeniusOfLove said:
I've owned loads of risky old barges, but the standout for being utter misery to own was a 2007 W221 Mercedes S600. It felt like the car was fighting me every step of the way to keep it running with everything working, not a fortnight would go by without something breaking and I was relieved to finish every journey without incident. I got rid after a year when the "bullet proof" 5G box crapped itself. If I hadn't been able to DIY the car and spend hours researching the root causes of it's many issues it would have been absolutely ruinously expensive in diagnostic time alone.
They are a car that tempts me, perhaps it's an itch I should leave well alone...The car's ive been glad to see the back of were the ones I bought with a sensible head on.
First one that sticks out was an MG ZT 1.8 (sporty looking Rover 75). I bought it needing a car in a hurry after someone drove into the side of my previous Mondeo and wrote it off. The Mg looked lovely in bright red but it was horrible, very small inside, awkward boot shape meant bulky objects were a nightmare, cheap leatherette half leather seats split, got crashed into twice in my ownership, both times to the rear, the second one wrote it off.
Second one was a Volvo V60, it was a 61 plate if I recall, it had the Ford 1.6 litre petrol turbo engine. The engine wasn't bad at all but the rest of the car was full of electrical gremlins, most of the door locks failed on me in my 18 months ownership which was £300 a time to repair from a specialist, the boot was £450. The Blind spot indicators failed every time it rained, never got that fixed.
After 18 months I sold it to a car buying service losing about £2k in the process, I swore off Volvo's for life after that, I didn't even think the "legendary" Volvo seats were that good, certainly every German brand I have encountered has had better seats.
First one that sticks out was an MG ZT 1.8 (sporty looking Rover 75). I bought it needing a car in a hurry after someone drove into the side of my previous Mondeo and wrote it off. The Mg looked lovely in bright red but it was horrible, very small inside, awkward boot shape meant bulky objects were a nightmare, cheap leatherette half leather seats split, got crashed into twice in my ownership, both times to the rear, the second one wrote it off.
Second one was a Volvo V60, it was a 61 plate if I recall, it had the Ford 1.6 litre petrol turbo engine. The engine wasn't bad at all but the rest of the car was full of electrical gremlins, most of the door locks failed on me in my 18 months ownership which was £300 a time to repair from a specialist, the boot was £450. The Blind spot indicators failed every time it rained, never got that fixed.
After 18 months I sold it to a car buying service losing about £2k in the process, I swore off Volvo's for life after that, I didn't even think the "legendary" Volvo seats were that good, certainly every German brand I have encountered has had better seats.
donkmeister said:
GeniusOfLove said:
I've owned loads of risky old barges, but the standout for being utter misery to own was a 2007 W221 Mercedes S600. It felt like the car was fighting me every step of the way to keep it running with everything working, not a fortnight would go by without something breaking and I was relieved to finish every journey without incident. I got rid after a year when the "bullet proof" 5G box crapped itself. If I hadn't been able to DIY the car and spend hours researching the root causes of it's many issues it would have been absolutely ruinously expensive in diagnostic time alone.
They are a car that tempts me, perhaps it's an itch I should leave well alone...Most of the issues were generic "Mercedes are actually a bit crap" faults, just more of them because the car was fully loaded, only a few special V12 exclusive problems (£2,500 ignition system overhaul).
If anything fighting these issues of constantly failing subsystems on an S320d all for the experience of driving a slow diesel Heathrow Taxi would be more frustrating, so if you're going to get an S class get a good one, they're all just as bad
Another MB of early 2000s vintage, a CLS in my case.
It wasn't consistent in its faults and they were never "big stuff" (M113 & 5g are mechanically sound, and the Airmatic held out well) but it was always stuff that impinge on usability (eg window regulators) or electronic failures to proceed, and always £500+ to set right. And £400 for a plug change - went only to buy them myself, found they were £350 (×16 of), so let MB do it for me...
A 10-year younger diesel 3-Series seemed a characterless thing afterwards but at the time that was *100%* what I was after.
It wasn't consistent in its faults and they were never "big stuff" (M113 & 5g are mechanically sound, and the Airmatic held out well) but it was always stuff that impinge on usability (eg window regulators) or electronic failures to proceed, and always £500+ to set right. And £400 for a plug change - went only to buy them myself, found they were £350 (×16 of), so let MB do it for me...
A 10-year younger diesel 3-Series seemed a characterless thing afterwards but at the time that was *100%* what I was after.
About 15 years ago I needed a cheap runabout, but being young and stupid I turned down a free Proton Persona a work colleague was getting rid of. Instead I wanted something "cooler" so bought a ropey Vectra SRi from a backstreet dealer. I think even he tried to direct me towards a Nissan Primera estate he had in the corner, but nope, I wanted the Vectra as it was more powerful 
It lasted about 6 months, constant warning lights/ cutting out, sensors needing replacing. Central locking didn't work. Leaked coolant. In the end it was scrapped and ended up with a Mk 5 Fiesta which although only half the power was a much better car.
It lasted about 6 months, constant warning lights/ cutting out, sensors needing replacing. Central locking didn't work. Leaked coolant. In the end it was scrapped and ended up with a Mk 5 Fiesta which although only half the power was a much better car.
AmyRichardson said:
Another MB of early 2000s vintage, a CLS in my case.
It wasn't consistent in its faults and they were never "big stuff" (M113 & 5g are mechanically sound, and the Airmatic held out well) but it was always stuff that impinge on usability (eg window regulators) or electronic failures to proceed, and always £500+ to set right. And £400 for a plug change - went only to buy them myself, found they were £350 (×16 of), so let MB do it for me...
A 10-year younger diesel 3-Series seemed a characterless thing afterwards but at the time that was *100%* what I was after.
I was so brutalised by my "The Best or Nothing" Mercedes-Benz experience I spent 6 months in a 1.6d Peugeot 208, enjoying the fact it always worked and didn't seem out to get me. It was dull but I wouldn't have gone back!It wasn't consistent in its faults and they were never "big stuff" (M113 & 5g are mechanically sound, and the Airmatic held out well) but it was always stuff that impinge on usability (eg window regulators) or electronic failures to proceed, and always £500+ to set right. And £400 for a plug change - went only to buy them myself, found they were £350 (×16 of), so let MB do it for me...
A 10-year younger diesel 3-Series seemed a characterless thing afterwards but at the time that was *100%* what I was after.
x5tuu said:
E39 530i
Truly hateful all-round (and it was only bought based on the incessant praise they get here) - it proved to me that PH collective-brain is serious flawed.
It lasted all of about 18days before I put it up for sale and was gone before 21days.
The PH Collective does indeed get it wrong sometimes though my example is a Volvo V70, 2007 vintage, T6 flavour. Needed a family wagon quickly as my Subaru had unexpectedly sold to the first person who looked at it, just a day after I put it up for sale - I though it would take ages to go…Truly hateful all-round (and it was only bought based on the incessant praise they get here) - it proved to me that PH collective-brain is serious flawed.
It lasted all of about 18days before I put it up for sale and was gone before 21days.
At first all seemed OK, the engine is great - smooth and torquey, even if not terribly powerful for 3.0-litre, twin-turbo, straight six.
But the rest of it was just truly, unerringly, awful. Especially those f
king seats. No lateral support at all, and the driving position gave me leg ache and back ache after about an hour. The car was heavy, steering was ponderous at best, ride was a combination of crashy and wallowy, and the build quality on the inside was leagues behind the Subaru.
And then we had a couple of breakdown call-outs - one of which was for an overheated electronic steering lock. Now, it gets hot in Sydney, so this was a likely recurring problem.
Anyway, about 6 months in, a friend offered me his CX9 to look after for a year whilst he took his family travelling. Nearly took his arm off and the Volvo was up for sale. Took about 6 weeks to go and I lost a few thousand $$, but was just so delighted it had gone. The big Mazda felt like it was from a different industry - everything the Volvo wasn’t, and cost buttons to run for a year.
The attraction of the V70 eluded me entirely.
Had a Mk2 Renault Clio for a short while in 2001 (ish), bought it for commuting as it was surprisingly comfortable to sit in and small so super easy to find a parking space for it. It was 18 months old when I bought it from a Renault dealer which it went back to multiple times with various electrical gremlins. It then started pumping out blue smoke on start up and they bought it back, in the 3 months I had it I am sure I spent more time in a courtesy car.
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