Tuner fined for pop and bang map & decat fitting
Discussion
You don't know the ins and outs of what was said in court but if this was part of the prosecutions stance I would argue it:
"Its investigators booked a car into AET Motorsport to have the conversion work carried out, and said that at no time did anyone at the company warn that the vehicle was no longer road legal and would fail an MoT".
If you have an interest in modifying your car and you book your car into a garage offering MOTORSPORT services surely it is already well understood that the company provides motorsport orientated products and services. In many cases what is suitable for motorsport use is not road legal.
The prosecution have presented this as if it would be a surprise to the customer. As if they had gone to the dentist and come out with a haircut. That is clearly not the case. A customer booking their (presumably 'sports') car into a motorsport workshop would reasonably expect to receive motorsport services.
Furthermore, if the business had actively described and promoted these modifications as road legal that would be a slam dunk... but I imagine they did not actually go that far... why would they?
Personally I feel this is all on the customer. There are no regulations for people providing automotive services which require all work to be suitable for road use. Some service providers work exclusively within the motorsport arena making exhaust systems which are just for off road use.
"Its investigators booked a car into AET Motorsport to have the conversion work carried out, and said that at no time did anyone at the company warn that the vehicle was no longer road legal and would fail an MoT".
If you have an interest in modifying your car and you book your car into a garage offering MOTORSPORT services surely it is already well understood that the company provides motorsport orientated products and services. In many cases what is suitable for motorsport use is not road legal.
The prosecution have presented this as if it would be a surprise to the customer. As if they had gone to the dentist and come out with a haircut. That is clearly not the case. A customer booking their (presumably 'sports') car into a motorsport workshop would reasonably expect to receive motorsport services.
Furthermore, if the business had actively described and promoted these modifications as road legal that would be a slam dunk... but I imagine they did not actually go that far... why would they?
Personally I feel this is all on the customer. There are no regulations for people providing automotive services which require all work to be suitable for road use. Some service providers work exclusively within the motorsport arena making exhaust systems which are just for off road use.
thatdude said:
JD said:
No it would sound utterly s
t, and mark you out as a selfish cretin.
A Ducati on loud high-quality exhausts sounds fantastic. With the right exhaust, louder vehuicles can sound ok, and the steady tone is plasent and doesnt make you jump. It's the ones with the pops and bangs, or the ones with an exhaust note so loud and raspy it hurts the ears (here's looking at you, early 2000's GSXR owners with stubby exhaust end-cans!) that are annoying. t, and mark you out as a selfish cretin. But… not when the ride it’s sat in traffic pretending that he is on a motorcross bike with no tick over.
Then it just sounds annoying. Like ‘that guy’ on the train listening to his personal choice of music through his phones speakers.
NFT said:
Soleith, should have said kitchen knife instead of frying pan.
Wouldn't make any difference, the whole kitchen utensil vs pop and bang remap doesn't work, but it does give you an insight into those that forward such a comparison. If you're that feeble minded that moding your car like this is appealing, you should forfeit your licence.
Fastdruid said:
Not only the decats and pop 'n' bang maps, there are a million and one firms offering dpf "solutions", egr blank offs, remaps etc and none advising they're illegal.
thats because they are not illegal... they are just not allowed on the road with said modifcations.. private land, track days etc.. fully legal Pent said:
Fastdruid said:
Not only the decats and pop 'n' bang maps, there are a million and one firms offering dpf "solutions", egr blank offs, remaps etc and none advising they're illegal.
thats because they are not illegal... they are just not allowed on the road with said modifcations.. private land, track days etc.. fully legal If they were going to be used on track, private land, trackdays etc then they wouldn't be subtly modifying the dpf so the mot inspector can't tell it's had its insides removed and advertising as such.
Outside of about 5 people in the entire country, no one is getting their DPF removed for *only* off road use and never ever using it on the road again and again, they would be *removing* the DPF not "smashing it through" and mapping it out.
It's utter b
ks for *anyone* to claim otherwise. liner33 said:
As usual the maniacal hand clappers fail to appreciate that this is the start of a slippery slope
In the US this has become common with tuners being charged thousands for selling car parts which could result in that car increasing its emissions it’s being outlawed and more alarmingly they are making it illegal to modify any car that has ever been used on the road which stops 99% of motorsport in its tracks
So don’t complain when all the parts you buy for your car have to come from the manufacturer or approved sources
You can continue your hand clapping and back slapping now
That’s proven useful.In the US this has become common with tuners being charged thousands for selling car parts which could result in that car increasing its emissions it’s being outlawed and more alarmingly they are making it illegal to modify any car that has ever been used on the road which stops 99% of motorsport in its tracks
So don’t complain when all the parts you buy for your car have to come from the manufacturer or approved sources
You can continue your hand clapping and back slapping now
It just reminded me to add kitchen foil to the last food shopping delivery before xmas.
Whole diesel DPF thing really does need looked at - I think they are looking at ways of measuring things differently though, so that may soon be short lived.
In a previous life during lockdowns I used to cycle allot when traffic largely off the roads. The number of sports bikes with exhausts going full chat past me, made me hate them with a vengeance. Its subjective - when you are inside a car or helmet on, people have little idea of the noise outside. When your toddling along and something that makes your ears ring does past full chat on a public road, its a different matter.
I love a decent engine sound dont get me wrong but if it means less VXR hoons throttling up and down constantly then cant argue with it.
As an aside I also dont understand why Youtubers like LLF etc get away with driving cars like they do, the way the do on public roads.
In a previous life during lockdowns I used to cycle allot when traffic largely off the roads. The number of sports bikes with exhausts going full chat past me, made me hate them with a vengeance. Its subjective - when you are inside a car or helmet on, people have little idea of the noise outside. When your toddling along and something that makes your ears ring does past full chat on a public road, its a different matter.
I love a decent engine sound dont get me wrong but if it means less VXR hoons throttling up and down constantly then cant argue with it.
As an aside I also dont understand why Youtubers like LLF etc get away with driving cars like they do, the way the do on public roads.
Jazoli said:
Because you are increasing your tailpipe emissions and your car now also stinks, its also made your car not legal to be on the road, insurance companies should not be allowing decats at all if one is required for the mot.
And yet many cars get better mpg. I've yet to come across a car that stinks because of a decat. Not sure you know what you're on about here, other than what you read on Govt. websites.Edited by Jazoli on Friday 24th November 00:28
There's some right hand wringers on here. People seem to wish legislation upon themselves, and then wonder why the freedom to do anything is no longer theirs.
Edited by Heaveho on Friday 24th November 09:38
fantheman80 said:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/consumer-news/361602...
I know pop and bang threads have been done to death on here, but this is an interesting development, a company fined for a decat and the map which put it over the noise limit and for not advising at the time it was illegal. Many tuners out there fit these, and may fit decats. Maybe a few tuners changing their websites soon..!
I've had two cars with straight through exhausts fitted over the years, both times I was informed by the fitters the car would be an MOT fail and noise levels obnoxiously high if I revved it. One of the cars came with a pops and bangs map that was amusing for about 48 hours, then I had it switched.I know pop and bang threads have been done to death on here, but this is an interesting development, a company fined for a decat and the map which put it over the noise limit and for not advising at the time it was illegal. Many tuners out there fit these, and may fit decats. Maybe a few tuners changing their websites soon..!
Soleith said:
I mistakenly thought he would see the ridiculousness of the object for what it was and identify the error of his thinking but apparently that was too obvious!
It's your thinking that's wrong. These horrendous noisy remaps are not for motorsport and do nothing except create noise pollution (and emissions pollution), so they create public nuisance even if they were only used on private land. This kind of s
t modification needs to be clamped down on to protect the good modification industry from being tarnished by the same brush.Tommo87 said:
That’s proven useful.
It just reminded me to add kitchen foil to the last food shopping delivery before xmas.
Whatever , ignorance is bliss It just reminded me to add kitchen foil to the last food shopping delivery before xmas.
the EPA’s reinterpretation of the Act asserted that converting a vehicle that was designed for street use into a dedicated race car was in direct violation of the CAA
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2022/03/recognizi...
The EPA has pre-classified many motorsports products as illegal and is issuing fines without investigating the circumstances. Companies selling these products are presumed guilty by the EPA, regardless of the product’s use
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industr...
Don't think it can happen here ?
Gets more like mumsnet every day
Heaveho said:
Jazoli said:
Because you are increasing your tailpipe emissions and your car now also stinks, its also made your car not legal to be on the road, insurance companies should not be allowing decats at all if one is required for the mot.
And yet many cars get better mpg. I've yet to come across a car that stinks because of a decat. Not sure you know what you're on about here, other than what you read on Govt. websites.Heaveho said:
There's some right hand wringers on here. People seem to wish legislation upon themselves, and then wonder why the freedom to do anything is no longer theirs.
Ah yes, the freedom to poison people because you're too cheap to maintain your stbox.liner33 said:
As usual the maniacal hand clappers fail to appreciate that this is the start of a slippery slope
In the US this has become common with tuners being charged thousands for selling car parts which could result in that car increasing its emissions it’s being outlawed and more alarmingly they are making it illegal to modify any car that has ever been used on the road which stops 99% of motorsport in its tracks
So don’t complain when all the parts you buy for your car have to come from the manufacturer or approved sources
You can continue your hand clapping and back slapping now
Your thinking is incorrect too. The aftermarket/modifications industry is better protected by weeding out the sIn the US this has become common with tuners being charged thousands for selling car parts which could result in that car increasing its emissions it’s being outlawed and more alarmingly they are making it illegal to modify any car that has ever been used on the road which stops 99% of motorsport in its tracks
So don’t complain when all the parts you buy for your car have to come from the manufacturer or approved sources
You can continue your hand clapping and back slapping now
t stuff.Fully in support of banning pops and bangs type maps and horrendously loud exhausts.
However, these noise cameras seem like the tip of an iceberg that is best left uncovered.
Was watching a BvG YT video the other day where he had to pull the clutch in past all these noise cameras just incase he set them off. Thus a) rendering them pretty moot and b) likely catching stuff out that the vast majority of us in the car world would consider perfectly acceptable.
I'm almost certain my Chimaera would be above any arbitrary noise limit despite it sounding much as it did 29 years ago.
However, these noise cameras seem like the tip of an iceberg that is best left uncovered.
Was watching a BvG YT video the other day where he had to pull the clutch in past all these noise cameras just incase he set them off. Thus a) rendering them pretty moot and b) likely catching stuff out that the vast majority of us in the car world would consider perfectly acceptable.
I'm almost certain my Chimaera would be above any arbitrary noise limit despite it sounding much as it did 29 years ago.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Friday 24th November 09:50
I feel this ruling has made an awful precedent.
Yes no-one wants obnoxious sh*tboxes with their pop pop bang bang exhausts flying around everywhere making an awful noise at 30mph.
But also, the sound of a Maserati Granturismo with an X-pipe instead of a set of cats, or a Ferrari 355 with a full Tubi or Capristo exhaust is a thing of wonder. (I had the aforementioned Maser so can totally confirm).
The noise issue is very subjective, I removed two sets of Cats from my Maserati 4200 and it failed the mot on noise emissions. (far louder than standard was put on the test decline).
However, even though my 4200 was 112db at idle, my neighbours totally standard Harley Davidson was 126db at idle. Yet that passed the mot.
I fear with this ruling, that we will end up going down the route of Germany (I think) where modding cars which drive on the road is practically illegal.
Yes no-one wants obnoxious sh*tboxes with their pop pop bang bang exhausts flying around everywhere making an awful noise at 30mph.
But also, the sound of a Maserati Granturismo with an X-pipe instead of a set of cats, or a Ferrari 355 with a full Tubi or Capristo exhaust is a thing of wonder. (I had the aforementioned Maser so can totally confirm).
The noise issue is very subjective, I removed two sets of Cats from my Maserati 4200 and it failed the mot on noise emissions. (far louder than standard was put on the test decline).
However, even though my 4200 was 112db at idle, my neighbours totally standard Harley Davidson was 126db at idle. Yet that passed the mot.
I fear with this ruling, that we will end up going down the route of Germany (I think) where modding cars which drive on the road is practically illegal.
Geoffcapes said:
I feel this ruling has made an awful precedent.
Yes no-one wants obnoxious sh*tboxes with their pop pop bang bang exhausts flying around everywhere making an awful noise at 30mph.
But also, the sound of a Maserati Granturismo with an X-pipe instead of a set of cats, or a Ferrari 355 with a full Tubi or Capristo exhaust is a thing of wonder. (I had the aforementioned Maser so can totally confirm).
The noise issue is very subjective, I removed two sets of Cats from my Maserati 4200 and it failed the mot on noise emissions. (far louder than standard was put on the test decline).
However, even though my 4200 was 112db at idle, my neighbours totally standard Harley Davidson was 126db at idle. Yet that passed the mot.
I fear with this ruling, that we will end up going down the route of Germany (I think) where modding cars which drive on the road is practically illegal.
Exactly this.Yes no-one wants obnoxious sh*tboxes with their pop pop bang bang exhausts flying around everywhere making an awful noise at 30mph.
But also, the sound of a Maserati Granturismo with an X-pipe instead of a set of cats, or a Ferrari 355 with a full Tubi or Capristo exhaust is a thing of wonder. (I had the aforementioned Maser so can totally confirm).
The noise issue is very subjective, I removed two sets of Cats from my Maserati 4200 and it failed the mot on noise emissions. (far louder than standard was put on the test decline).
However, even though my 4200 was 112db at idle, my neighbours totally standard Harley Davidson was 126db at idle. Yet that passed the mot.
I fear with this ruling, that we will end up going down the route of Germany (I think) where modding cars which drive on the road is practically illegal.
halo34 said:
MPG is one thing, what about emissions - the CAT was fitted for a reason right?
Mine in the past have passed the emissions test without it. The car just needs to be hot.I'm not advocating doing stuff that is clearly detrimental, but things like cats, lamda sensors, adblu, dpf's and egr's are great when theyr'e working. But they often aren't working properly, and when they aren't they're just more cost, aggro or inefficient than doing without them. Unfortunately, not usually an option on the stuff I run, for some of the reasons stated above, ie, legalities.
Again, loud maps, and loud cars in general are just anti-social, don't add performance or efficiency benefits, and have no business on the streets. The emissions stuff is great in theory, often unreliable in practice.
Edited by Heaveho on Friday 24th November 10:01
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