RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
DMZ said:
I think I’ve said it before re Aston Martin, but a counter strategy where they ignore EVs could well work well. They can’t tap into the BIK breaks but on the other hand they have an increasingly unique offering by doing essentially nothing.
also the sort of people that buy Astons don't really care about BIK breaks do they? If they do, they'll just have a Landy or Ranger commercial for the dirty work
smilo996 said:
niche manufacture with angry boss says precisely nothing about the direction of travel for EV's. Ask a boss whose company makes millions of cars because they are the ones driving the market.
Pretty much this. What Aston Martin do has almost 0 impact on the general car market or what someone like Toyota or VW are going to do for most of their fleet. Aston sell a few thousand cars a year, none of them affordable or for the masses with almost all of their clientele likely owning another car already that is more "usable".
If they continue making ICE for the next 20 years as their USP, or decided to switch to EV's only tomorrow for whatever reason, the rest of the car sector wouldn't bat an eyelid let alone change their strategy.
Rich Boy Spanner said:
EV's will work fine when they all have a minimum 400 mile range, and every motorway services has 50 chargers. I had to take a EV as a company car and due to the tight wad attitude that only stretched to a Leaf. Great within range of the home charger and nice to drive but a total PITA on any long journey. I have a 500 mile round trip next week and can't even face taking it, so am using my 17 year old diesel Toyota instead. I can live with the charging if I know I can turn up and do it, but even that isn't guaranteed. You have no idea how long you have to wait for a free charger, and the rows I saw at the chargers at Rugby services on the M6 last month were vile.
Some people WFH most of the time but when we do travel, it's usually hundreds of miles with several meetings in a day and no destination charging. Having to go out of your way and stop to charge an EV would mean extra days on the road and extra nights in hotels, with all the expense and inconvenience that entails. You can't even leave your car on charge overnight when staying in hotels because that blocks the chargers and so you'd have to get out of bed to go and move it.Wab1974uk said:
Not many want and EV.
Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
Not strictly correct. No one is being forced. They're on the shelves and there for someone who wants one. Plus, it's a top down change not the bottom up one that some love to claim. Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
DonkeyApple said:
Wab1974uk said:
Not many want and EV.
Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
Not strictly correct. No one is being forced. They're on the shelves and there for someone who wants one. Plus, it's a top down change not the bottom up one that some love to claim. Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
DonkeyApple said:
And battery tech hasn't moved forward quickly enough yet, nor infrastructure for EV to work well for luxury GTs. Sane people don't spend £200k to have to then loiter at Watford Gap services.
Amusingly, they are not used as luxury GT. Taking a look at the 32 2014 AMs for sale on this site, the average mileage is 27,000 (with the highest 48,000)So, about 50 miles a week.
Real back of a fag packet calculations.
Sales pa: 6500
Average price: 200,000
Nett profit: 20%
Profit: 260m
Debt: 1bn , 75% T/O
If everything stays static, it would take four years to write off the debt.
To my layman's eyes, it doesn't look like a too perilous position to be in, even if the ratio of debt to T/O is high.
What I wonder is, how much annual investment is required for a business like AM going forward, 260m doesn't seem like a massive amount to develop new models and bring them to the market and then there's the debt aspect.
Sales pa: 6500
Average price: 200,000
Nett profit: 20%
Profit: 260m
Debt: 1bn , 75% T/O
If everything stays static, it would take four years to write off the debt.
To my layman's eyes, it doesn't look like a too perilous position to be in, even if the ratio of debt to T/O is high.
What I wonder is, how much annual investment is required for a business like AM going forward, 260m doesn't seem like a massive amount to develop new models and bring them to the market and then there's the debt aspect.
Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 11th April 21:20
J4CKO said:
It is a tough one for the high end manufacturers, ok they still have their brand, styling, luxury interiors etc, but a big big part of their USP has gone.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
Disagree. Displacement (V12/ V8) was always a bit of a lazy way to get power. Toyota/ Honda/ Renault etc can (and have) built better engines than Aston in the past or now - just that for them V8/V12 are a bit niche. A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
It's much more of an engineering challenge to design and build a Toyota Corolla (say) than an AM DB11, as you also have VFM constraints. Now and again the 'lower tier' companies get a bit annoyed by the fact that most people don't think so, so come up with a Toyota LFA.
Source: practical experience from when as an engineer I worked on both defense and civil projects. The MOD projects were less of a challenge, because of basically having no budget constraint - i.e. "Build the best" is easier than "Build the best at a price of X, plus operating cost must be under Y, and reliability Z"
The reason why you then don't have so many firms concentrating on building the best regardless of budget is that the market for such stuff isn't very big
The Selfish Gene said:
also the sort of people that buy Astons don't really care about BIK breaks do they?
If they do, they'll just have a Landy or Ranger commercial for the dirty work
not true at all, loads of business owners with money daily drive taycan's / e-tron rs's etc as it just makes so much financial senseIf they do, they'll just have a Landy or Ranger commercial for the dirty work
WCZ said:
The Selfish Gene said:
also the sort of people that buy Astons don't really care about BIK breaks do they?
If they do, they'll just have a Landy or Ranger commercial for the dirty work
not true at all, loads of business owners with money daily drive taycan's / e-tron rs's etc as it just makes so much financial senseIf they do, they'll just have a Landy or Ranger commercial for the dirty work
only the business owners that don't like cars............I operate across several businesses - and there is one Trashaycan from a pool of proper Porsches, Ferraris, Landies, Rangers, Range Rovers, Defenders, various other classics and motorbikes.
It's only the faceless corporation types that only offer EV rubbish where it's rife.
BIK is hardly a problem to people who run a proper business
It no more heralds the end of the EV bubble any more than AM's announcement of EVs contributed to the hype. The shift to EVs is significant for both manufacturers and customers and, though I have no interest in cars on the basis of the sounds and smells they produce, would be wary of stepping into an EV market that is evolving so quickly. If 1500kg and 500 mile range become the norm then I think EVs look compelling but if I don't have to be an early adopter then I won't.
Aston Martin should not be taken as a bellwether for the direction of travel in terms of the automotive drive train.
Whilst the UK has about 33M cars China has 320M and overtaken the USA. They are adding 17M annually to this number. They've also been developing EVs for much longer than the West including Tesla. Certain models they sell in the West are being sold for 50% less in China so they have plenty of headroom to disrupt our car industries.
So despite those wishing that the ICE will win out and EVs be abandoned it isn't going to happen. That die has been set by China much like Japan did to the UK motor industry in the late 60s -70s with Datsun and Toyota.
I suspect that the likes of BYD will do what Nissan did and build factories in Europe, UK and USA to overcome any potential tariffs.
What Aston is doing is an irrelevant side show in relation to long term global car manufacturing direction.
Whilst the UK has about 33M cars China has 320M and overtaken the USA. They are adding 17M annually to this number. They've also been developing EVs for much longer than the West including Tesla. Certain models they sell in the West are being sold for 50% less in China so they have plenty of headroom to disrupt our car industries.
So despite those wishing that the ICE will win out and EVs be abandoned it isn't going to happen. That die has been set by China much like Japan did to the UK motor industry in the late 60s -70s with Datsun and Toyota.
I suspect that the likes of BYD will do what Nissan did and build factories in Europe, UK and USA to overcome any potential tariffs.
What Aston is doing is an irrelevant side show in relation to long term global car manufacturing direction.
Tommo87 said:
charltjr said:
This is a tiny, niche manufacturer selling Mercedes power trains in a pretty frock as toys to the wealthy. No surprise that demographic is highly conservative and that Aston don’t have the money to push ahead until they have to.
You already have an electric car, don’t you?
Well, I’m so sorry that the vast majority of people do not like the same things as you.
te post like that, and I'm not at all surprised it came from you.Where did I say anything at all which was pro EV in my post? It was just an observation on Aston's market position. It's probably the right choice for them, they don't have the money to go EV and most of their older and more conservative market are highly suspicious of the transition.
I do have an EV, I also have a Merc E-class diesel and a V10 M6. If you're looking for someone with a broad spectrum of cars which they appreciate and enjoy, I would be that person. I'm not the one in an echo chamber here.
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
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