RE: Ford Focus RS
Discussion
I'd assumed that the rear spoiler was purely for show. The lip on the ST looks like it'll create a pretty clean break as it is, and I can't see this generating any actual downforce because it's not high enough up or far enough away from the body to be in completely clean air.
Happy to be proven wrong though. It's impossible to tell what it's been designed to do without seeing a picture which can give an idea of the cross-sectional shape. Even if it does create true "negative lift" it wont be more than a few kg.
Happy to be proven wrong though. It's impossible to tell what it's been designed to do without seeing a picture which can give an idea of the cross-sectional shape. Even if it does create true "negative lift" it wont be more than a few kg.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 11th March 08:48
kambites said:
I'd assumed that the rear spoiler was purely for show. The lip on the ST looks like it'll create a pretty clean break as it is, and I can't see this generating any actual downforce because it's not high enough up or far enough away from the body to be in completely clean air.
Happy to be proven wrong though. It's impossible to tell what it's been designed to do without seeing a picture which can give an idea of the cross-sectional shape. Even if it does create true "negative lift" it wont be more than a few kg.
I thought that too. No pitch, and it lets air slip under it so it's not spoiling the airflow to reduce lift.Happy to be proven wrong though. It's impossible to tell what it's been designed to do without seeing a picture which can give an idea of the cross-sectional shape. Even if it does create true "negative lift" it wont be more than a few kg.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 11th March 08:48
I'd have imagined a closed section extension (ala the ST) would have spoiled the air enough to reduce lift. What is on the RS certainly doesn't look like it'll make downforce anyway.
j123 said:
Mr. Whip,
"interesting how much quicker/composed the awd Audi is than it's fwd peers"
Where did you read that? Which Audi is this? JL
Evo magazine review of tuned hot hatches, after the RS one. Quicker, see the stats, and being composed will be a natural extension of that. If it can match the pace of the others in a line without utilising all it's accelerative grip potential then it has lateral grip potential to spare when matching the speeds of the others (ie, rather than go 0-60 in 4.x seconds, it can do it in ~ 6s and also do some turning."interesting how much quicker/composed the awd Audi is than it's fwd peers"
Where did you read that? Which Audi is this? JL
Dave
Mr Whippy, it would seem you know everything about car design as you now comment of the RS's aerodynamics?
You have already wrongly claimed that Revoknuckle is "nothing that Alfa haven't done for the last decade" Did Alfa not think to Patent it then?
"RevoKnuckle has been patented by Ford for a key aspect of its design: the additional connection between RevoKnuckle and the front anti-roll bar, critical for its high resistance to rotation.
"Aerodynamics
Aerodynamics also played a part in the Dynamics team’s work. Says Densing: “Aero is very important to any car, but usually concentrated on not creating lift front to rear. With its sophisticated aero package, Focus RS generates genuine downforce at circuit speeds and we’ve covered thousands of kilometres refining computer simulations to find the right balance of downforce without too much drag.”
The target for high speed stability of a performance car is to position the aerodynamic centre of pressure at a controlled point behind the centre of gravity.
In Focus RS, the starting point was the standard Focus shape, crafted to generate moderate front end and rear end lift at higher speeds. The challenge was to transform this lift into downforce and bring the aerodynamic centre of pressure forward, without undue sacrifice to the drag coefficient and top speed.
Extensive wind-tunnel testing was conducted to refine aerodynamic performance, with a target of delivering about 40 points of downforce at the front and 10 points at the rear.
The resulting aerodynamic elements for Focus RS achieve these targets, creating 26 per cent more downforce than Focus ST, yet with a drag co-efficient (Cd) of 0.38.
The result of all this effort is a car that is not just fast in a straight line. It is the fastest ever car around the infamous handling circuit at Ford of Europe’s Lommel Proving Ground in Belgium – known to the team as ‘Route 7’ – beating even the Ford GT and cementing its dynamic credentials."
"From the outset, Team RS worked with Ford’s design and aerodynamics specialists to ensure performance style met performance requirements. The prominent front air splitter, twin-blade rear spoiler and rear venturi all underwent significant aerodynamic testing to achieve the right cooling and aerodynamic targets."
I ***think*** maybe the engineers know their stuff
You have already wrongly claimed that Revoknuckle is "nothing that Alfa haven't done for the last decade" Did Alfa not think to Patent it then?
"RevoKnuckle has been patented by Ford for a key aspect of its design: the additional connection between RevoKnuckle and the front anti-roll bar, critical for its high resistance to rotation.
"Aerodynamics
Aerodynamics also played a part in the Dynamics team’s work. Says Densing: “Aero is very important to any car, but usually concentrated on not creating lift front to rear. With its sophisticated aero package, Focus RS generates genuine downforce at circuit speeds and we’ve covered thousands of kilometres refining computer simulations to find the right balance of downforce without too much drag.”
The target for high speed stability of a performance car is to position the aerodynamic centre of pressure at a controlled point behind the centre of gravity.
In Focus RS, the starting point was the standard Focus shape, crafted to generate moderate front end and rear end lift at higher speeds. The challenge was to transform this lift into downforce and bring the aerodynamic centre of pressure forward, without undue sacrifice to the drag coefficient and top speed.
Extensive wind-tunnel testing was conducted to refine aerodynamic performance, with a target of delivering about 40 points of downforce at the front and 10 points at the rear.
The resulting aerodynamic elements for Focus RS achieve these targets, creating 26 per cent more downforce than Focus ST, yet with a drag co-efficient (Cd) of 0.38.
The result of all this effort is a car that is not just fast in a straight line. It is the fastest ever car around the infamous handling circuit at Ford of Europe’s Lommel Proving Ground in Belgium – known to the team as ‘Route 7’ – beating even the Ford GT and cementing its dynamic credentials."
"From the outset, Team RS worked with Ford’s design and aerodynamics specialists to ensure performance style met performance requirements. The prominent front air splitter, twin-blade rear spoiler and rear venturi all underwent significant aerodynamic testing to achieve the right cooling and aerodynamic targets."
I ***think*** maybe the engineers know their stuff
Dave_ST220 said:
Mr Whippy, it would seem you know everything about car design as you now comment of the RS's aerodynamics?
You have already wrongly claimed that Revoknuckle is "nothing that Alfa haven't done for the last decade" Did Alfa not think to Patent it then?
"RevoKnuckle has been patented by Ford for a key aspect of its design: the additional connection between RevoKnuckle and the front anti-roll bar, critical for its high resistance to rotation.
"Aerodynamics
Aerodynamics also played a part in the Dynamics team’s work. Says Densing: “Aero is very important to any car, but usually concentrated on not creating lift front to rear. With its sophisticated aero package, Focus RS generates genuine downforce at circuit speeds and we’ve covered thousands of kilometres refining computer simulations to find the right balance of downforce without too much drag.”
The target for high speed stability of a performance car is to position the aerodynamic centre of pressure at a controlled point behind the centre of gravity.
In Focus RS, the starting point was the standard Focus shape, crafted to generate moderate front end and rear end lift at higher speeds. The challenge was to transform this lift into downforce and bring the aerodynamic centre of pressure forward, without undue sacrifice to the drag coefficient and top speed.
Extensive wind-tunnel testing was conducted to refine aerodynamic performance, with a target of delivering about 40 points of downforce at the front and 10 points at the rear.
The resulting aerodynamic elements for Focus RS achieve these targets, creating 26 per cent more downforce than Focus ST, yet with a drag co-efficient (Cd) of 0.38.
The result of all this effort is a car that is not just fast in a straight line. It is the fastest ever car around the infamous handling circuit at Ford of Europe’s Lommel Proving Ground in Belgium – known to the team as ‘Route 7’ – beating even the Ford GT and cementing its dynamic credentials."
"From the outset, Team RS worked with Ford’s design and aerodynamics specialists to ensure performance style met performance requirements. The prominent front air splitter, twin-blade rear spoiler and rear venturi all underwent significant aerodynamic testing to achieve the right cooling and aerodynamic targets."
I ***think*** maybe the engineers know their stuff
I *think* maybe you are quoting brochure bollarks again. Or did the engineers write that?You have already wrongly claimed that Revoknuckle is "nothing that Alfa haven't done for the last decade" Did Alfa not think to Patent it then?
"RevoKnuckle has been patented by Ford for a key aspect of its design: the additional connection between RevoKnuckle and the front anti-roll bar, critical for its high resistance to rotation.
"Aerodynamics
Aerodynamics also played a part in the Dynamics team’s work. Says Densing: “Aero is very important to any car, but usually concentrated on not creating lift front to rear. With its sophisticated aero package, Focus RS generates genuine downforce at circuit speeds and we’ve covered thousands of kilometres refining computer simulations to find the right balance of downforce without too much drag.”
The target for high speed stability of a performance car is to position the aerodynamic centre of pressure at a controlled point behind the centre of gravity.
In Focus RS, the starting point was the standard Focus shape, crafted to generate moderate front end and rear end lift at higher speeds. The challenge was to transform this lift into downforce and bring the aerodynamic centre of pressure forward, without undue sacrifice to the drag coefficient and top speed.
Extensive wind-tunnel testing was conducted to refine aerodynamic performance, with a target of delivering about 40 points of downforce at the front and 10 points at the rear.
The resulting aerodynamic elements for Focus RS achieve these targets, creating 26 per cent more downforce than Focus ST, yet with a drag co-efficient (Cd) of 0.38.
The result of all this effort is a car that is not just fast in a straight line. It is the fastest ever car around the infamous handling circuit at Ford of Europe’s Lommel Proving Ground in Belgium – known to the team as ‘Route 7’ – beating even the Ford GT and cementing its dynamic credentials."
"From the outset, Team RS worked with Ford’s design and aerodynamics specialists to ensure performance style met performance requirements. The prominent front air splitter, twin-blade rear spoiler and rear venturi all underwent significant aerodynamic testing to achieve the right cooling and aerodynamic targets."
I ***think*** maybe the engineers know their stuff
Have you read some of the things they say in these brochures? They make it sound like they have re-invented the wheel and whole car, even when talking about a bloody foglight ffs
Do you KNOW what revoknuckle does? It reduces the scrub radius. I'm surprised Ford have a patent on it because it looks very similar to Renaults offering (have you actually taken a look at the two struts?)
All they have done is split the kingpin steering axis off the strut axis, so that isn't what the patent is, but it's fundamentally all you need to do to move the scrub axis around on a McP strut.
Aerodynamics of the Focus designed for lift at both ends (odd, or is that because it gets lift naturally at one end because of it's shape, so they engineer in lift at the other to balance it (makes it sound clever, but it's what EVERY car manufacturer does)), but the RS turned that around for downforce, but now has 26% MORE downforce than the ST? Hang on, I thought they just said the Focus had lift designed in, but the ST has ACTUAL downforce? So how did they go from engineered in lift to downforce on the ST with a tiny spoiler and chunkier bumper, to then get 26% more again on the RS with an even chunkier bumper and slightly stickier outy spoiler?
I'm not an expert, but I know that a wing with no pitch won't create the levels of downforce that are suggested by it's presence.
I would the reduction in lift, is all down to that splitter (which also brings the centre of pressure forward anyway), and being very low riding.
The drag coefficient isn't fantastic, and a pitched rear wing for downforce would add more drag (not good for economy or top speed)... it just doesn't NEED that much downforce.
They even refer to target downforce as 'points', how many Newtons of force are they talking here, 10N, 100N, 1000N? Probably 10N
Anyway, happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide some actual test data rather than Ford marketing material. I'm sure if you took the spoiler off and fitted the ST one, you'd see the same lap times.
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 11th March 10:25
OH dear even I am getting bored with this now.otolith said:
Mr Whippy said:
Do you KNOW what revoknuckle does? It reduces the scrub radius. I'm surprised Ford have a patent on it because it looks very similar to Renaults offering (have you actually taken a look at the two struts?)
AutoCar's comment on this:
That said, the 'torquey' Mondeo ST TDCi with 300lbft of torque never feels torque steery and I don't think it uses it...
I think the Renault part is interesting in that they can fit the bigger wider multi-piston callipers under a wheel. Logically on any other car you'd fit spacers to push the wheel out to get clearance, but increase the scrub radius lots... being able to run the strut more vertical for the same strut top position, but then push the wheel out and give clearance for brakes, AND get the scrub radius a nice size, seems a good reason for using it!
Guess thats why the lesser Fords, like torquey ST TDCi Mondeo etc, don't really need it, as they can run the hub tight up to the wheel and thin sliding calipers.
Mr Whippy, you keep saying give the Megane more power and then it will equal the RS, but then I guess you don't want the same technique applied to the RS? I'm sure the RS with it's bigger turbo and 2.5litrs could go up to around 360 and then the Renault will be back where it started. Behind.
The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
zakelwe said:
Mr Whippy, you keep saying give the Megane more power and then it will equal the RS, but then I guess you don't want the same technique applied to the RS? I'm sure the RS with it's bigger turbo and 2.5litrs could go up to around 360 and then the Renault will be back where it started. Behind.
The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
OK, why not just add 800bhp to both.The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
Firstly every extra Nm of torque applied that does increase acceleration actually reduces grip available.
So as we add more power, an increasingly small amount is useable.
The Renault (or any car with a decent limited slip or torque biasing diff) should be able to match the 300bhp of the Ford RS to the same degree.
Going beyond 300bhp clearly has less possible gain.
Ie, add 10% to each, and the one with less power originally will see more benefit with it's 10% extra power than the one with more.
Dave
zakelwe said:
Mr Whippy, you keep saying give the Megane more power and then it will equal the RS, but then I guess you don't want the same technique applied to the RS? I'm sure the RS with it's bigger turbo and 2.5litrs could go up to around 360 and then the Renault will be back where it started. Behind.
The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
Also, the Ford is faster than the Renault while still being a nice usable everyday car. I love the R26R, but hats off to the RS- it spanks it.The concencus seems to be the Maegane is no longer king dick.
Regards
Andy
thekirbyfake said:
Mr Whippy said:
I'm saying what the Evo story said
Did you miss the point regarding the optional near slick Toyo 888s fitted to the R26.R used in the test?
Mr Whippy said:
I look forward to a normal R26 vs the RS on some UK roads. A big hot hatch group test with numerous drivers on numerous roads with all the best current hatches
This will be the real acid test - so far all the reviews I've seen of the RS have been on nice, dry roads. It'll be interesting to see it pitched against the Impreza and suchlike on soggy Welsh tarmac.Witchfinder said:
Mr Whippy said:
I look forward to a normal R26 vs the RS on some UK roads. A big hot hatch group test with numerous drivers on numerous roads with all the best current hatches
This will be the real acid test - so far all the reviews I've seen of the RS have been on nice, dry roads. It'll be interesting to see it pitched against the Impreza and suchlike on soggy Welsh tarmac.
How do we get Garlic to hire the Alpine course on a wet day. And convice the relavent manufacturers to give us:Focus RS
EVO X <numbers and letters and stuff here>
Subaru STI
Renault R26R
Astra VXR
A handy selection of 888 tyres....
Mr Whippy said:
thekirbyfake said:
Mr Whippy said:
I'm saying what the Evo story said
Did you miss the point regarding the optional near slick Toyo 888s fitted to the R26.R used in the test? I have a sneaking suspicion that the underdog will win Mr Whippy said:
zakelwe said:
Mr Whippy said:
I didn't say the R26R was quicker, I said that in the article the Focus RS moves were matched by the R26R's at every point (apparently). So the RS isn't quicker despite it's power.
Dave
So you are saying both cars aren't quicker? Catchpole thinks differently and he has driven both.Dave
What you did say was this
"I'm sure just an R26 with normal drivers on average UK roads wouldn't see any real difference as it stands. The Ford only plays it's power advantage well up over 80mph. Great for the motorway or very fast A roads then, just where a hot hatch is at it's best"
But from Evo above that is your wishful thinking and not reality it seems. Unless the road into Vence is a motorway ...
Regards
Andy
Edited by zakelwe on Tuesday 10th March 17:55
Evo magazine drove the RS and R26R down a hill. Neither was said to have any advantage over the other in pure pace.
Remap a 'practical' R26 (non-R) and you would probably end up at the same place.
The Ford isn't doing anything stunning is it? It's not particularly fast for it's power/weight and power figure and it's not really a cheap or economical hot hatch either.
It is simply the sum of it's parts. Whoopie dooo. A good sum of good parts, but that is all it is. If Renault push an R26 up to 275bhp tomorrow, and add some weight and toys and big brakes and more bodykit, they will have much the same thing as the Focus RS.
As I've said now many times (seems to be ignored), I don't doubt it is a GOOD car, I just don't think it deserves the hype Ford have given it, nor is it that impressive in any technical/engineering standpoint (everything we see has been done already many years earlier)
The only reason they went for 300bhp was because to get decent performance with the weight they had they needed that much. Others would offer it, but chose the sensible route to improve performance (less weight)
I can't believe people are trumpeting the ethos used here. Yes, weight is fine, as long as you add more power to compensate for it!?
Dave
seriously you chat some rubbish.
you havent driven it and everyone who has says it is awesome. can you please shut up now.
Mr Whippy said:
I'm not an expert
so why and try and act like you are? and this technical data you want people to magic up rather than marketing spiel? where are we likely to find that?
enough is enough, i am sure you just do it to wind people up.
Edited by rsstman on Wednesday 11th March 14:05
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