RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
NomduJour said:
Not heard of any LR-specific problems with the eight speeds. Work very well in my experience, pretty sure they don’t knock out a run of reject ones for them.
I’m pretty sure that there are different specs for the ZF boxes from the 6 onwards. The specs being mainly torque ratings so the ZF8 in your Roller is different to the one you find in your basic hatchback. The lighter cars use the HP30 and I think the ratings go up to HP90 for Rollers at the like.
I’ve no idea which variant LR use although it wouldn’t surprise me if they run it close to the limits of there’s a cost saving.
NomduJour said:
Always amused by this “argument” - it must be why Toyota won’t be replacing the archaic 70 Series Land Cruiser with anything remotely similar (but they do still sell a massive five or six thousand of them a year in Australia).
Toyota say they will produce the 70 series indefinitely. In fact sales are actually increasing.https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/mid-2018-4x4-s...
skyrover said:
Toyota say they will produce the 70 series indefinitely. In fact sales are actually increasing.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/mid-2018-4x4-s...
Land Cruiser sales have been plummeting for the last 20 years. https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/mid-2018-4x4-s...
How many do you think they sell each year in Aus?
Why would you take the one of the best all round off-road cars that is built by one of the largest automotive companies on the planet for about the lowest manufacturing cost possible, look at its massively declining sales figures for the last two decades and see that as evidence that a high cost, mid sized, premium car manufacturer should enter that space? It’s utter madness.
It only sells a few hundred units in each market that it is in and the three biggest buyers are the UAE, the UN and then Aus. It’s undercut in the US and China, the two largest automotive markets on the planet by local manufacturers.
The new Defender will massively outsell the entire global sales of the Landcruiser in just the UK alone, let alone China and the US.
The Landcruiser is the single biggest piece of crushing proof that JLR are 100% correct. The world is tarmacd. No one with £50k to spend on a car needs a vehicle that favours extreme off-road ability to the deference of on road comfort, style and branding.
Pie-n-Peys said:
No chance.
Less than £30k. What planet have you been on in recent years 
My bog-standard 1.0 petrol Golf was £18k list. How on earth do you think JLR are going to produce a much larger, v6/V8 powered, 4 wheel drive car with far greater tech input (and make enough profit to survive) selling this for less than £30k???
DonkeyApple said:
Land Cruiser sales have been plummeting for the last 20 years.
How many do you think they sell each year in Aus?
Why would you take the one of the best all round off-road cars that is built by one of the largest automotive companies on the planet for about the lowest manufacturing cost possible, look at its massively declining sales figures for the last two decades and see that as evidence that a high cost, mid sized, premium car manufacturer should enter that space? It’s utter madness.
It only sells a few hundred units in each market that it is in and the three biggest buyers are the UAE, the UN and then Aus. It’s undercut in the US and China, the two largest automotive markets on the planet by local manufacturers.
The new Defender will massively outsell the entire global sales of the Landcruiser in just the UK alone, let alone China and the US.
The Landcruiser is the single biggest piece of crushing proof that JLR are 100% correct. The world is tarmacd. No one with £50k to spend on a car needs a vehicle that favours extreme off-road ability to the deference of on road comfort, style and branding.
Why not build a car that is profitable, fills a niche and gives the brand credibility?How many do you think they sell each year in Aus?
Why would you take the one of the best all round off-road cars that is built by one of the largest automotive companies on the planet for about the lowest manufacturing cost possible, look at its massively declining sales figures for the last two decades and see that as evidence that a high cost, mid sized, premium car manufacturer should enter that space? It’s utter madness.
It only sells a few hundred units in each market that it is in and the three biggest buyers are the UAE, the UN and then Aus. It’s undercut in the US and China, the two largest automotive markets on the planet by local manufacturers.
The new Defender will massively outsell the entire global sales of the Landcruiser in just the UK alone, let alone China and the US.
The Landcruiser is the single biggest piece of crushing proof that JLR are 100% correct. The world is tarmacd. No one with £50k to spend on a car needs a vehicle that favours extreme off-road ability to the deference of on road comfort, style and branding.
By all means build the new car, but the best 4x4xfar it certainly isn't.
Morgan dont sell many cars, but they make money and sales are consistent. Should they stop?
skyrover said:
The Range Rover is great... it fills a niche, but not the same niche as the Defender. So build them both.
The problem is that there is no real market for the Land Rover as it was for a company like JLR. It’s a fun toy that really isn’t very good on road. Maybe whoever has the tooling will be released to build them once the new Defender is established but it’s unlikely a separate entity could raise the capital required to replace that tooling as it was pretty much knackered.
Besides, if I wanted a new old Defender today then I can just go and buy one and it will be better built, drive better, rot less etc. If the old Defender is crucial to JLRs image then they are all still out and about promoting that image and there is no need for any new ones.
skyrover said:
Why not build a car that is profitable, fills a niche and gives the brand credibility?
By all means build the new car, but the best 4x4xfar it certainly isn't.
Morgan dont sell many cars, but they make money and sales are consistent. Should they stop?
Morgan have a business model which works for them, and they stick to it. It's low-volume, high-cost, idiosyncratic cars with a limited and specific appeal. They sell to a market that wants them and they don't try and fight with Mazda for MX-5 sales, Porsche for Boxster sales, Toyota for GT86 sales, GM for Corvette sales or even Lotus for Elise sales. They have one factory and less than 200 employees. By all means build the new car, but the best 4x4xfar it certainly isn't.
Morgan dont sell many cars, but they make money and sales are consistent. Should they stop?
Morgan's way of doing things has seen them outlast a lot of their competition. But part of that success is because they've stuck to what they know and what they can do well, and cut their cloth to suit their means, even when this has meant only making a handful of cars each week, pricing them at levels which seem irrational to anyone who doesn't 'get' Morgans and letting a multi-year waiting list build up.
What they don't do is suddenly decide to build a Ford Focus or a BMW 3-Series rival selling for £30k and at a rate of 300,000 per year. Just as JLR don't decide to keep pressing on with a product which is equally mismatched to their current production and business methods.
As I've said before, Land Rover made an explicit choice to let 'the Land Rover' wither on the vine way back in late 1970s when it switched its focus to the Range Rover and what became the Discovery. They could have shut down Solihull and moved into an industrial unit somewhere to keep 200 people in work building a trickle of 'real Land Rovers' to keep the die-hard fans happy, and maybe they'd be as successful at it as Morgan. But they didn't do that, and since the other option of LR gaining enough resources to fight the Japanese firms on an international footing was equal amounts of fantasy, they decided to maintain, grow, expand and secure their business as a builder of premium, upmarket First-World 4x4s.
oh! not another landrover with inbuilt faults,my son spoke to a higer exec and asked him would he buy a landrover,no thanks!,they are too busy just getting them to port of destination to give them a pre- delivery once over
really for sorry for the chinese distributors,personally i drive a 3.6 porsche cayenne it has no inbuilt problems
really for sorry for the chinese distributors,personally i drive a 3.6 porsche cayenne it has no inbuilt problems
LarsG said:
Landrovers are adequate for pavement parking in Chelsea but expect to leave them with a garage for 30 days a year. Otherwise if you want the tough car of choice a Toyota. Rebels and mercenaries swear by them.
Yes but the British Army still uses lots of Defenders. This new one won't look right in khaki, and they will be crucified in House of Commons committees either for buying Japanese rather than British (Slovakian actually !) or paying over the odds.Just as with the Lister Bell Stratos, maybe there's a market niche for a small company to produce a rugged proper Defender style vehicle that can do everything farmers and the armed forces want and with no frills.
MikeDB1 said:
LarsG said:
Landrovers are adequate for pavement parking in Chelsea but expect to leave them with a garage for 30 days a year. Otherwise if you want the tough car of choice a Toyota. Rebels and mercenaries swear by them.
Yes but the British Army still uses lots of Defenders. This new one won't look right in khaki, and they will be crucified in House of Commons committees either for buying Japanese rather than British (Slovakian actually !) or paying over the odds.Just as with the Lister Bell Stratos, maybe there's a market niche for a small company to produce a rugged proper Defender style vehicle that can do everything farmers and the armed forces want and with no frills.
Never mind, I will watch the value of my fleet climb. Demand will not go away.
bearman68 said:
Wonder what price they're going to charge for it. For it to complete it's design brief IMO it has to have:-
1) Ability to tow 3.5t.
2) Genuine off road ability.
3) Proper transfer box, and a manual option.
4) Hugely reduced electronic control. I'll allow electric windows, ABS, and a clever anti slip function on the wheels. Electronic engine control of course, but not much more.
5) Ability to be cleaned out with a jet washer.
6) Be less than £30k OTR.
I suspect the last 3 things will not happen.
Looking forward to seeing what they do.
yes to all, 1) is disco does 3.5t, then defender will easily do 3.7t 5) maybe the floor, but not the seats 6) will probably for the 90inch verison1) Ability to tow 3.5t.
2) Genuine off road ability.
3) Proper transfer box, and a manual option.
4) Hugely reduced electronic control. I'll allow electric windows, ABS, and a clever anti slip function on the wheels. Electronic engine control of course, but not much more.
5) Ability to be cleaned out with a jet washer.
6) Be less than £30k OTR.
I suspect the last 3 things will not happen.
Looking forward to seeing what they do.
cabbagekitten said:
bearman68 said:
Wonder what price they're going to charge for it. For it to complete it's design brief IMO it has to have:-
1) Ability to tow 3.5t.
2) Genuine off road ability.
3) Proper transfer box, and a manual option.
4) Hugely reduced electronic control. I'll allow electric windows, ABS, and a clever anti slip function on the wheels. Electronic engine control of course, but not much more.
5) Ability to be cleaned out with a jet washer.
6) Be less than £30k OTR.
I suspect the last 3 things will not happen.
Looking forward to seeing what they do.
yes to all, 1) is disco does 3.5t, then defender will easily do 3.7t 5) maybe the floor, but not the seats 6) will probably for the 90inch verison1) Ability to tow 3.5t.
2) Genuine off road ability.
3) Proper transfer box, and a manual option.
4) Hugely reduced electronic control. I'll allow electric windows, ABS, and a clever anti slip function on the wheels. Electronic engine control of course, but not much more.
5) Ability to be cleaned out with a jet washer.
6) Be less than £30k OTR.
I suspect the last 3 things will not happen.
Looking forward to seeing what they do.
Just a quick reminder (although I know that you do already know this) the 3.5 tonne towing limit is a legal limit based on the use of overrun brakes on the trailer.
Anything heavier than this will require brakes on the trailer that work from their own system (such as air brakes etc) and this becomes quite a specialist installation for a road car.
Anything heavier than this will require brakes on the trailer that work from their own system (such as air brakes etc) and this becomes quite a specialist installation for a road car.
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