RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!

[anonymous-user]

Zad said:

If Land Rover actually want to make lots of money from the lower end of the market...





https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/suzuki/jimny/105254/...

Not sure I'd want to drive about in a car with 'LITTLE D' written on the bonnet. No matter how true it may be, ahem..

[LDN]

Kierkegaard said:

Zad said:

If Land Rover actually want to make lots of money from the lower end of the market...





https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/suzuki/jimny/105254/...

Not sure I'd want to drive about in a car with 'LITTLE D' written on the bonnet. No matter how true it may be, ahem..

[skyrover]

Its more of a Defender than Land Rovers so called "replacement".

[The Vambo]

skyrover said:

Its more of a Defender than Land Rovers so called "replacement".

You can just hear the trembling lower lip in this post.

[aaron_2000]

skyrover said:

Its more of a Defender than Land Rovers so called "replacement".

You've seen it? Care to tell us what it's like? Or are you just full of st?

[Zad]

Right now, almost everyone reading this thread has a mental image of Vic and Bob clasping handbags don't they?

[skyrover]

aaron_2000 said:

skyrover said:

Its more of a Defender than Land Rovers so called "replacement".

You've seen it? Care to tell us what it's like? Or are you just full of st?

We've seen enough of the mule.

If you don't understand why than you don't understand the Defender or offroading.

[DonkeyApple]

skyrover said:

We've seen enough of the mule.

If you don't understand why than you don't understand the Defender or offroading.

To be fair, in this case you are not understanding who was buying the Defender at the end and how many people actually go off-roading.

Common sense has to be applied here. The Defender had become an on road lifestyle product with the huge problem that there was no profit margin in a mid sized, premium manufacturer building a cheap utility vehicle in such low volume.

The company exists to sell Range Rovers. That is it’s core product and has been for decades. Every other product is leveraged off the Range Rover product and has to compliment and fit within that set up.

The Defender had become a total lifestyle product. A bit of quirky fun bought by city dwellers, tourist attractions and niche enterprises. Those same clientele will buy the new one. Except it will work better as it will have a road focus and be comfortable and practical for what it will be used for. It will also have a viable profit margin.

This huge demand for off-road workhorses is a total fallacy. It’s some kind of weird dream of end of Empire. Land Rover had a forced clientele for decades. The colonies had to buy Land Rovers because the Govt blocked competition. The Utilities has to buy Land Rovers because they were State owned. And the same with the military.

As the Empire was dismantled each newly independent nation became free to buy the product they needed on the open market. They did not buy Land Rovers. As the Utilities were all privatised they became commercially responsible and had to buy the right product to protect profits. They did not buy Land Rovers. And as warfare evolved, hundreds of British soldiers lost their lives unnecessarily until enough had died to force the Govt to start buying the correct tools for the job.

And then the Govt signed new international trade agreements that removed the commercial blocks on overseas products and the domestic buyers of Land Rovers became free to buy the right product for their use and they stopped buying Land Rovers.

Land Rovers only sold because they were backed by the British Govt which not only was the largest customers throughout its lifespan but also blocked consumers from being able to buy alternatives. At any point where there was a free market people bought alternative solutions.

All that was left without that Govt support was the fun market and that wasn’t off roaders but chaps who lived in London, worked white collar jobs and wanted a bit of fun.

The Range Rover was the total opposite. It didn’t rely on the Govt for 80% if it’s sales, it was a leader in its own right and has been the preferred solution not just in the newly independent colonies but many, many global markets. Domestically, it has been the preferred choice even despite ever rising competition from more efficient and better global manufacturers.

It’s 2018. The world is tarmaced. No one needs to go off-road. It’s just a niche hobby in affluent countries and one that mostly relies on cheap, second hand, end of life vehicles. And a niche that the mass, global manufacturers of North America and Asia can cater far and a low volume, luxury manufacturer in England would be stupid to bother with.

[Shakermaker]

Also, there is absolutely no shortage of used Land Rovers available on eBay if ever you want one.

[aaron_2000]

skyrover said:

aaron_2000 said:

skyrover said:

Its more of a Defender than Land Rovers so called "replacement".

You've seen it? Care to tell us what it's like? Or are you just full of st?

We've seen enough of the mule.

If you don't understand why than you don't understand the Defender or offroading.

I think it's you that doesn't understand the Defender. It's not an off-roader, it's not a farmyard car, it's a farmer chic product that's not meant to go offroad (unless you count the shooting range as offroad). It's a lifestyle product, nothing more.

[Genuine Barn Find]

Brooking10 said:

FiF said:

Mind you, off at a tangent, just been reading a thread over on freel2.com where some poor bugger has had his over 100,000 pounds worth of Full Fat Range Rover stranded at the dealers for weeks, probably 7 weeks by now. Service manager refusing to take his calls. Tried to reject it and replace with new but dealer wanted 25,000 contribution for the 10 months intermittent use he had from it.

Last LR he'll buy obviously.

Not good

Any indication who the dealer is ?

No coincidence that dealers are actively looking to drop JLR from their portfolio. The dealer doesn't 'want' the contribution..... JLR sand bag on lots of these claims and their internal customer service/liaison is woeful..... JLR are refusing to accept liability for another sub-standard product and expect the dealer to stump up the shortfall in the amount they are prepared to offer. I had FF RR's and Disco 5 turning up on low loaders a week after they were delivered new with software issues that rendered them inoperable. The patches to solve the issue were not introduced until 4 months after delivery - so the conclusion to draw here is that they were knowingly sent out with a fault..... and with no means to solve it. Dealers are far from perfect, but having spent 12 months working retail at a JLR dealership, i can absolutely assure you that the issues do not sit at dealer level. Unfortunately, when you have had a customer sat crying at your desk and refusing to leave the dealership an hour after closing (the same customer who earlier threatened to drive his Disco 5 through the plate glass), you tend to take a different view to the received one that often appears on PH.

[Ayahuasca]

DonkeyApple said:

It’s 2018. The world is tarmaced. No one needs to go off-road.

Come and visit me in Central America - you might go home thinking differently.

[AC123]

Will have to be good to gain market share pack from all the pickups available now. Be interesting to see where they price it.

[Bill]

I'll just leave this here: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-ne...

(And then flee the moaning!)

[Krikkit]

Ayahuasca said:

DonkeyApple said:

It’s 2018. The world is tarmaced. No one needs to go off-road.

Come and visit me in Central America - you might go home thinking differently.

That was the only but of his post I disagreed with!

That said, what are the dominant vehicles in the unpaved areas? Not defenders that's for sure.

[DonkeyApple]

Ayahuasca said:

Come and visit me in Central America - you might go home thinking differently.

So no roads at all? And everyone so loaded they want JLR products? .

Or maybe there are roads in Central America and they are full of dirt cheap US and Asian utility vehicles?

I take it that you are not suggesting there is no link between wealth and proximity to tarmac? Or that JLR have missed an amazing opportunity to sell expensive vehicles to poor people who use rough tracks?

[Lester H]

There’s an elephant in the thread......Price! Those wanting a strong utility go anywhere 4x4 for those very practical reasons won’t pay funny money.

[NJJ]

So now I partially get the LR strategy, for those that miss the square boxy lines of the old Disco 4, they will have the new Defender as compensation. But then the Discovery brand is for who exactly.......? Possibly Disco Sport and 5 are aimed at upcoming families etc? Range Rover is reserved for the luxury market.

But is there enough of a market for all of this? Especially when you consider Jaguar's E/F and future J-Pace entering the already confusing and crowded market.

[anonymous-user]

here's a reminder for the Beards of just one of the reasons that JLR have (correctly) dumped Beam Axles for the new Offender......

2018_JeepWrangler_NCAP_result

[Fire99]

I think a Defender minus beam axles is a mistake.. (in my opinion of course). Personally, for maintaining the brand's identity, it needs its utilitarian 'halo' model, even if ironically it's less road capable than something with independant suspension and more road frills.
Yep lots of Defenders will only live on tarmac, much the Jimny will probably do the same, but if Land Rover blends itself into nothing more than a plethora of variously capable roady/off-roaders it will lose focus.

The brand has many similar varieties of the same thing, touted as different cars. Ranger Rover, RR Sport, Velar, Discovery, Discovery Sport, Evoque. It doesn't need another model that is slighty tougher than another model. The Defender should be stark in its no-nonsense identity, even if it sacrifices some road ability. By giving less I think it would ultimately give the brand more.. (Not forgetting the obiligatory IMO)

And I wonder for this model, does NCAP really matter that much?

Edit - PS.. I wonder if some of the reason for independent suspension is actually cost. JLR's development budget doesn't appear to be too big at the moment and I wonder if this allows them to borrow some existing platform tech from an existing LR / RR, rather than having to design an entirely new platform for the Defender.. Just a thought.

Edited by Fire99 on Wednesday 5th December 13:45