Ask a car salesman anything...anything at all.
Discussion
Wooda80 said:
Chimune said:
Colombo mode on: just one nore question....
Would a dealer obliged to inform a prospective buyer that an approved car has had an engine change, done by the selling dealer, just a few months previously?
Would neglecting to tell a purchaser this be grounds for rejection?
A dealer is under no obligation to inform a prospectve buyer about a new engine, any more than if it had had a new radio or new brakes.Would a dealer obliged to inform a prospective buyer that an approved car has had an engine change, done by the selling dealer, just a few months previously?
Would neglecting to tell a purchaser this be grounds for rejection?
A dealer would probably choose not to disclose it as it is something that is likely to be perceived as a negative thing, even though it should logically be either a positive thing or at worst a neutral thing.
Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
4941cc said:
A dealer has a duty of care to inform a potential customer of any material fact of which they are aware , or may reasonably be expected to be aware of that may unduly influence their decision to purchase.
Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
Can you cite a source for that armchair legalese?Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
I've never seen an Approved Used Car check from any manufacturer that records a check of the engine number, nor on independent reports done by the likes of RAC or marque specialists done on behalf of my customers. Can anyone else show a report that does?
Whether or not the previous owner had a wooden leg should not influence a customer's decision to purchase. It would therefor be an undue influence. Should I still have to disclose it?
Julian Thompson said:
Paint protection for £300 ... of which the sales guy gets £150.
The dealer will make £150-200 on it. Salespeople these days will earn more like £15-25 per additional product, best places maybe £40-50.
FCA best practice guidelines about incentives unduly influencing salespeople to push products that may not be suitable or appropriate for the customer's needs have changed the way bonuses on add-ons get paid.
Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I used to get paid 50% of the net profit of a GAP policy. Sold at £349, that was £234 net profit to dealership, split 50:50 with me. Used to run at over 60% penetration. Post-2008 crunch and certainly post 2015 shake up of consumer rights, it's not worth the time to push it to the Nth degree for what it pays.
Wooda80 said:
4941cc said:
A dealer has a duty of care to inform a potential customer of any material fact of which they are aware , or may reasonably be expected to be aware of that may unduly influence their decision to purchase.
Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
Can you cite a source for that armchair legalese?Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
I've never seen an Approved Used Car check from any manufacturer that records a check of the engine number, nor on independent reports done by the likes of RAC or marque specialists done on behalf of my customers. Can anyone else show a report that does?
Whether or not the previous owner had a wooden leg should not influence a customer's decision to purchase. It would therefor be an undue influence. Should I still have to disclose it?
OFT Second Hand Car Dealers Guidance
Engine number will be on the HPI certificate, V5C, warranty document and should feature on any independent engineer's report such as RAC/AA etc - it's as basic a requirement as checking the reg and VIN all match!
4941cc said:
Wooda80 said:
4941cc said:
A dealer has a duty of care to inform a potential customer of any material fact of which they are aware , or may reasonably be expected to be aware of that may unduly influence their decision to purchase.
Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
Can you cite a source for that armchair legalese?Such as has it been an ex-rental, multi-user car, a replacement engine could fall under this duty of care. A dealer may reasonably be expected to verify that the engine number on the HPI, V5C and engine itself all tally.
I've never seen an Approved Used Car check from any manufacturer that records a check of the engine number, nor on independent reports done by the likes of RAC or marque specialists done on behalf of my customers. Can anyone else show a report that does?
Whether or not the previous owner had a wooden leg should not influence a customer's decision to purchase. It would therefor be an undue influence. Should I still have to disclose it?
OFT Second Hand Car Dealers Guidance
Engine number will be on the HPI certificate, V5C, warranty document and should feature on any independent engineer's report such as RAC/AA etc - it's as basic a requirement as checking the reg and VIN all match!
Referencing the OFT document, the reference to hire cars etc is not given as an absolute obligation to disclose but as an example as to how statements such as "1 owner" may become misleading. Nowhere does it state the obligation to disclose whether a new engine has been fitted.
You are correct that the engine number appears on all of those documents mentioned, all pulled from data associated with the registration number. Whether or not that number has been checked against the number on the actual block, in the overwhelming majority of cases I doubt it.
Wooda80 said:
I've re-read pages 7 and 8 but still can't see how it supports your proposition in your original post above.
Referencing the OFT document, the reference to hire cars etc. is not given as an absolute obligation to disclose but as an example as to how statements such as "1 owner" may become misleading. Nowhere does it state the obligation to disclose whether a new engine has been fitted.
You are correct that the engine number appears on all of those documents mentioned, all pulled from data associated with the registration number. Whether or not that number has been checked against the number on the actual block, in the overwhelming majority of cases I doubt it.
Referencing the OFT document, the reference to hire cars etc. is not given as an absolute obligation to disclose but as an example as to how statements such as "1 owner" may become misleading. Nowhere does it state the obligation to disclose whether a new engine has been fitted.
You are correct that the engine number appears on all of those documents mentioned, all pulled from data associated with the registration number. Whether or not that number has been checked against the number on the actual block, in the overwhelming majority of cases I doubt it.
guidance said:
4.5 It is a breach of the CPRs to mislead consumers by failing to give them the information they need in order to make an informed decision before the sale
4.6 This might, for example, be by omitting or hiding important information you are aware of or providing important information in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous, or untimely manner, where this is likely to cause the average consumer to take a different decision.
That's the wording - different dealers then apply their individual interpretations. As said, they are best practice *guidelines* of how to apply the CPRs in a manner that should a dispute arise, could be considered treating the consumer fairly.4.6 This might, for example, be by omitting or hiding important information you are aware of or providing important information in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous, or untimely manner, where this is likely to cause the average consumer to take a different decision.
Different dealer groups then issue their own best practice guidelines to sales teams, worded in their own way.
guidance said:
Misrepresenting the specification or history of the vehicle, for example by making misleading statements about the service history, any previous accident damage, number of previous owners, the technical specification (engine size, MPG), insurance grouping or environmental performance.
Failure to disclose an engine change could also be interpreted potentially as an example of a misleading omission. My pet one is this - how often do we see it on dealer/trader ads on Ebay etc, or dealers/traders agree to a reduced price on such a basis:
Guidance said:
Misleading consumers about their
statutory or other rights, for example,
by using words or statements such as
‘Sold as Seen’ or ‘Trade Sale Only’ or
‘No Refund’ or ‘Spare or Repair’ even if
the statement ‘this does not affect your
statutory rights’ is included.
statutory or other rights, for example,
by using words or statements such as
‘Sold as Seen’ or ‘Trade Sale Only’ or
‘No Refund’ or ‘Spare or Repair’ even if
the statement ‘this does not affect your
statutory rights’ is included.
I've seen a few dealers apparently selling products from outside tuning companies. Volkswagen and Audi dealers showing cars in showrooms with ABT bodykits and tuning, BMW dealers showing Schnitzer products, Ford dealers showing wheels from companies such as Wolfrace. Ford even had non-Ford branded wheels on their accessories website for a while. Is it commonplace for dealers to sell products from outside tuning companies and are the car manufacturers aware of this and happy for it to happen?
Blakewater said:
I've seen a few dealers apparently selling products from outside tuning companies. Volkswagen and Audi dealers showing cars in showrooms with ABT bodykits and tuning, BMW dealers showing Schnitzer products, Ford dealers showing wheels from companies such as Wolfrace. Ford even had non-Ford branded wheels on their accessories website for a while. Is it commonplace for dealers to sell products from outside tuning companies and are the car manufacturers aware of this and happy for it to happen?
We used to sell Wolfrace wheels, well offer them, they looked s
t so no one bought any; they were fully endorsed by the manufacturer. Blakewater said:
I've seen a few dealers apparently selling products from outside tuning companies. Volkswagen and Audi dealers showing cars in showrooms with ABT bodykits and tuning, BMW dealers showing Schnitzer products, Ford dealers showing wheels from companies such as Wolfrace. Ford even had non-Ford branded wheels on their accessories website for a while. Is it commonplace for dealers to sell products from outside tuning companies and are the car manufacturers aware of this and happy for it to happen?
Well clearly yes they are....You can get a Brabus tuning box from Mercedes dealers as well.
Posting this on behalf of a pal (honestly).
He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car? Going by well documented reports re VW currently, I am of the opinion they are just stringing people along for as long as it takes and he will be lucky to see his car this side of Christmas. Any VW guys out there able to give the true picture?
Personally, I love the delicious irony of VW getting fked over by a situation that they alone created. Serves the s right and why people still insist on giving money to this lying, cheating, corrupt and immoral company is beyond me.......... However for my mate its st situation as he just wants the car he has chosen.
He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car? Going by well documented reports re VW currently, I am of the opinion they are just stringing people along for as long as it takes and he will be lucky to see his car this side of Christmas. Any VW guys out there able to give the true picture?
Personally, I love the delicious irony of VW getting f
ked over by a situation that they alone created. Serves the s right and why people still insist on giving money to this lying, cheating, corrupt and immoral company is beyond me.......... However for my mate its st situation as he just wants the car he has chosen.StescoG66 said:
Posting this on behalf of a pal (honestly).
He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car? Going by well documented reports re VW currently, I am of the opinion they are just stringing people along for as long as it takes and he will be lucky to see his car this side of Christmas. Any VW guys out there able to give the true picture?
Personally, I love the delicious irony of VW getting fked over by a situation that they alone created. Serves the s right and why people still insist on giving money to this lying, cheating, corrupt and immoral company is beyond me.......... However for my mate its st situation as he just wants the car he has chosen.
From my information you are talking late December for delivery, certification is causing a lot of delays. He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car? Going by well documented reports re VW currently, I am of the opinion they are just stringing people along for as long as it takes and he will be lucky to see his car this side of Christmas. Any VW guys out there able to give the true picture?
Personally, I love the delicious irony of VW getting f
ked over by a situation that they alone created. Serves the s right and why people still insist on giving money to this lying, cheating, corrupt and immoral company is beyond me.......... However for my mate its st situation as he just wants the car he has chosen.StescoG66 said:
Posting this on behalf of a pal (honestly).
He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car?
On the mk2 Tiguan forum, people are being told mid-Oct release for already built 150PS 2 litre diesels. The time to get here seems variable - can be anything from a couple of weeks to six weeks. I would imagine VW will want to get them moving as quickly as they can.He ordered a VW Tiguan 2.0TDI S with privacy glass back in March as his new company car. Original delivery date was supposed to be August. That slid to early/mid September, and now mid/late September. Apparently the car is built but sitting awaiting certification in Germany for WLTP. In short - what is the likely timeframe for him to get his car?
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