Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

moneymakestheworldgoaround said:

Rob_R said:

Flemke, if you don't mind me asking, what's the current mileage of your F1?

If (providing I've looked at the right car) MOT Histories are anything to go by it had 41K last year November..

I drove it several times this year, but that is the right ballpark.

[hkz286]

flemke said:

No!

I don't know what is going on with those guys. The Japanese are amongst the most polite and responsible of people (okay, that wasn't always the case last century, but I'm talking about since then). After telling me that they would do it and establishing direct contact with the man who runs the Refresh Program, they just don't respond. It doesn't help that I don't speak or read Japanese. Not sure of the way forward.

There is a chap based in the UK that was one of the original R&D engineers on the NSX project, he has a 2 year waiting list (when i last checked) but has various refresh programmes for the NSX that would be of the same quality or higher (I do not say this lightly). However I don't think he undertakes paint or bodywork just FYI.

I could provide you with his contact details if you were getting around to seeking other options.

[Dr Gitlin]

E65Ross said:

So you don't think a 600LT is better looking, say, than a Senna?

I am not a fan at all of the sport series cars (the way they look or the way they drive) to be honest so it's all just more of the same.

flemke said:

But which is cause and which is effect?

At this point it's a feedback loop!

[flemke]

hkz286 said:

flemke said:

No!

I don't know what is going on with those guys. The Japanese are amongst the most polite and responsible of people (okay, that wasn't always the case last century, but I'm talking about since then). After telling me that they would do it and establishing direct contact with the man who runs the Refresh Program, they just don't respond. It doesn't help that I don't speak or read Japanese. Not sure of the way forward.

There is a chap based in the UK that was one of the original R&D engineers on the NSX project, he has a 2 year waiting list (when i last checked) but has various refresh programmes for the NSX that would be of the same quality or higher (I do not say this lightly). However I don't think he undertakes paint or bodywork just FYI.

I could provide you with his contact details if you were getting around to seeking other options.

I am familiar with him, thanks. My thinking was that, if I'm going to wait two years, better to do that for the official factory program than to do it for an (admittedly extremely good) independent. But if the option of the official program is simply impracticable, perhaps I should reconsider.

[flemke]

Dr Gitlin said:

flemke said:

But which is cause and which is effect?

At this point it's a feedback loop!

As the chicken once said to the egg.

[dobly]

Kenneth @ Proslink may be able to facilitate liaison with the Honda refresh programme staff, and sort out transportation etc.:

http://www.proslink.jp/company/index.html

(set browser to translate Japanese to English)

[anonymous-user]

Shmee said:

The difference with McLaren to other manufacturers is that the take "form follows function" so much more literally.

When the 720S was launched all the comments were with regards to how ugly the headlights were and now those views have swung to finding it one of the best looking supercars on the market.

When the Senna launched you could not have imagined a more negative reaction to the design, not helped by the way in which it was first shown, but now people have seen and understand what it is capable of and substantially warmed up to it.

Speedtail has repeated this, an immediate wrath of hostility towards it, but I am confident that with time the function will become more clear and with that will grow an understanding of the form and appreciation for it.

Check back in 12 months; I'm sure it will be considered one of the best looking hypercars of this era.

I think we might live on different planets. I'll admit personally I've warmed to the 720, in some colours but I've never spoken to a single person, who shares your enthusiasm for the Senna or Speedtail; quite the opposite. What is the Senna capable of? McLaren seem to be keeping it's lap times a secret. Let's also get real about the "form follows function" marketing nonsense; Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Pagani, Koenigsegg, Bugatti etc... and of course previous McLarens mp4/675LT/P1 all function rather well too.

[Brainpox]

Well now we know who owns the other UK NSX-R.

Warning: incredibly boring footage. There's no driving, just lots of jet washing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdsEAfJuE1w

[Shmee]

fblm said:

Shmee said:

The difference with McLaren to other manufacturers is that the take "form follows function" so much more literally.

When the 720S was launched all the comments were with regards to how ugly the headlights were and now those views have swung to finding it one of the best looking supercars on the market.

When the Senna launched you could not have imagined a more negative reaction to the design, not helped by the way in which it was first shown, but now people have seen and understand what it is capable of and substantially warmed up to it.

Speedtail has repeated this, an immediate wrath of hostility towards it, but I am confident that with time the function will become more clear and with that will grow an understanding of the form and appreciation for it.

Check back in 12 months; I'm sure it will be considered one of the best looking hypercars of this era.

I think we might live on different planets. I'll admit personally I've warmed to the 720, in some colours but I've never spoken to a single person, who shares your enthusiasm for the Senna or Speedtail; quite the opposite. What is the Senna capable of? McLaren seem to be keeping it's lap times a secret. Let's also get real about the "form follows function" marketing nonsense; Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Pagani, Koenigsegg, Bugatti etc... and of course previous McLarens mp4/675LT/P1 all function rather well too.

My impressions come from an awful lot of feedback via my social media content, which I would say give a very strong overview of the general global perspective. However, we might need to define "enthusiasm" as my post here does not claim an opinion in either direction to the cars specifically, but rather an expectation as to the general public opinion changing over time. I can assure you when I first posted a video of the 720S it was a case of endless comments with regards to the headlight design, just as more recently they were to the awkwardness of the Senna. In both cases these have done a complete 180 degree turn and I am anticipating the same with Speedtail opinions in the future. Already at this point only a few weeks after the reveal there has been a trend towards a more positive impression; particularly as renders have demonstrated how it will look in alternative colour schemes.

While McLaren have been keeping lap times a secret, within recent months I've driven the Senna around Estoril, as I have the Aventador SVJ, and also quite recently a GTE racecar in full WEC spec; so I have a pretty good idea of what it is capable of for one. Of course Speedtail at this moment is merely a model so it would be impossible to comment on how it will perform when the time comes and I must admit I too am surprised that it will 'only' reach 250mph.

I'm no engineer, but I am fortunate enough to spend a good amount of time with those that are, and also with designers responsible for cars from some of the manufacturers you mentioned. My interpretation has definitely become one of McLaren taking the philosophy more closely than others but of course whether you wanted to create a car that fulfills an exact purpose or just settled with it performing "rather well" will come down to each specific case.

[anonymous-user]

Shmee said:

My impressions come from an awful lot of feedback via my social media content

Like I said, I think we live on different planets.

Shmee said:

...
While McLaren have been keeping lap times a secret, within recent months I've driven the Senna around Estoril, as I have the Aventador SVJ, and also quite recently a GTE racecar in full WEC spec; so I have a pretty good idea of what it is capable of for one.

Thats vague. Do you mean "It's really fast" or do you mean I was told it can lap Estoril in X:XX? Why on earth would McLaren keep it's track times a secret if they are so good?

Shmee said:

I'm no engineer...

I am. Well was. I think it's excellent marketing constantly repeated by an obsequious motoring press. One could be forgiven for thinking Ferrari et al don't actually employ any engineers or McLaren any designers!

[flemke]

fblm said:

Shmee said:

...
While McLaren have been keeping lap times a secret, within recent months I've driven the Senna around Estoril, as I have the Aventador SVJ, and also quite recently a GTE racecar in full WEC spec; so I have a pretty good idea of what it is capable of for one.

Thats vague. Do you mean "It's really fast" or do you mean I was told it can lap Estoril in X:XX? Why on earth would McLaren keep it's track times a secret if they are so good?

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

[anonymous-user]

flemke said:

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

Normally I'd agree with respect to lap times but McLaren's "defence" to the almost universal derision of the Senna's looks at launch was that every awkward angle, every uncomfortable proportion were all designed by engineers to lower it's lap time. The car is supposed to be the ultimate road legal track car; it's all about the lap times. Very cool! So what are the lap times? Silence...

I don't doubt it's fabulously fast. I'm intrigued to know what those looks and 500k buy you over and above a 'base' 720. The only comparison I've seen was the 0.3 seconds at Anglesea which is obviously far from conclusive, or convincing. None of this matters of course, I just bristle a bit seeing marketing being swallowed whole and uncritically regurgitated as fact.

[E65Ross]

fblm said:

flemke said:

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

Normally I'd agree with respect to lap times but McLaren's "defence" to the almost universal derision of the Senna's looks at launch was that every awkward angle, every uncomfortable proportion were all designed by engineers to lower it's lap time. The car is supposed to be the ultimate road legal track car; it's all about the lap times. Very cool! So what are the lap times? Silence...

I don't doubt it's fabulously fast. I'm intrigued to know what those looks and 500k buy you over and above a 'base' 720. The only comparison I've seen was the 0.3 seconds at Anglesea which is obviously far from conclusive, or convincing. None of this matters of course, I just bristle a bit seeing marketing being swallowed whole and uncritically regurgitated as fact.

Autocar did one and said that their lap time was hindered by the driver not really pushing it to its limits, found it was around 2secs/lap quicker but said in reality it's worth at least 4 seconds per lap. I'd say that's pretty significant over a very, very fast car.

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

Perhaps McLaren need to do a 'Ferrari' and solely use one, UK, circuit for each model launch, so when the next model eclipses the lasts lap time on the same circuit there's a little relevancy to a benchmark.

[The Surveyor]

hurstg01 said:

Perhaps McLaren need to do a 'Ferrari' and solely use one, UK, circuit for each model launch, so when the next model eclipses the lasts lap time on the same circuit there's a little relevancy to a benchmark.

It's not really relevant though is it, especially when McLaren have only actually replaced one model in their history (the 720s replaced the 12c/650s) where everything else has just been new.

[hurstg01]

The Surveyor said:

hurstg01 said:

Perhaps McLaren need to do a 'Ferrari' and solely use one, UK, circuit for each model launch, so when the next model eclipses the lasts lap time on the same circuit there's a little relevancy to a benchmark.

It's not really relevant though is it, especially when McLaren have only actually replaced one model in their history (the 720s replaced the 12c/650s) where everything else has just been new.

but with the launch of new models as per their vision (15 new models by 2022?) wouldn't that make their own lap times more relevant to their older models?

[flemke]

fblm said:

flemke said:

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

Normally I'd agree with respect to lap times but McLaren's "defence" to the almost universal derision of the Senna's looks at launch was that every awkward angle, every uncomfortable proportion were all designed by engineers to lower it's lap time. The car is supposed to be the ultimate road legal track car; it's all about the lap times. Very cool! So what are the lap times? Silence...

I don't doubt it's fabulously fast. I'm intrigued to know what those looks and 500k buy you over and above a 'base' 720. The only comparison I've seen was the 0.3 seconds at Anglesea which is obviously far from conclusive, or convincing. None of this matters of course, I just bristle a bit seeing marketing being swallowed whole and uncritically regurgitated as fact.

£500k gets you 11% more power, 6% less weight, and I would guess at least 3x as much downforce. Also the looks, which are anti-beautiful but appeal to some people.
Whether that package is worth £750k is personal. I don't think a pint of beer is worth even £0.01, but I'm told that some people disagree.
Yes, the marketing is 80% BS, but I think that applies to pretty much all marketing everywhere.

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

I have been critical of many things that McLaren Automotive (the current road car manufacturers) have done, but in this case I think they have it right.
Although 'Ring times are the best known, road car lap-times at all circuits have become a game of which manufacturer could come up with the most deceptive, unrepresentative way of setting a time.
To begin with, the times are heavily dependent on who is driving and the conditions on the day. Those are obvious. But then we get to the manufacturers' lowering the cars, boosting the engines, and the tyres. The tyres - the compounds that are not in production because they are incredibly sticky but have about as much longevity as a Pirelli Hypersoft on a hot day. Just in this week's Autocar, in the "Britain's Best Driver's Car" feature, they point out that, along with the 488 Pista, Fezza sent along six sets of carbon wheels, half shod in Cup 2s and half shod in Cup 2 Rs - which the magazine points out are not even homologated yet.
As soon as one car company sets a time, that becomes a target for their competitors, and there is simply no way of knowing who is cheating (or perhaps I should say, how much they are cheating). If you could avoid getting sucked into that mess, why wouldn't you? Ferrari do not set official lap times (apart from those allegedly recorded at their private test track, thus making those times utterly meaningless), so why should McLaren?
Anybody who thinks that a McLaren road car isn't fast enough should have his head examined. How many Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/Lambo owners are even capable of driving their cars at a competitive lap-time - 0.1%?

Perhaps McLaren need to do a 'Ferrari' and solely use one, UK, circuit for each model launch, so when the next model eclipses the lasts lap time on the same circuit there's a little relevancy to a benchmark.

Could be, although these days they can simulate times with considerable accuracy. I agree that it would be nice to hear something - even "This car on the Nordschleife is 4.2 sec/lap faster than the 650S - but we're not saying how fast the 650S is."

[anonymous-user]

E65Ross said:

Autocar did one and said that their lap time was hindered by the driver not really pushing it to its limits, found it was around 2secs/lap quicker but said in reality it's worth at least 4 seconds per lap. I'd say that's pretty significant over a very, very fast car.

I thought it was autocar that did the 0.3 second test I mentioned? Where is it theoretically 4 seconds faster?

[trackdemon]

Brainpox said:

Well now we know who owns the other UK NSX-R.

Warning: incredibly boring footage. There's no driving, just lots of jet washing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdsEAfJuE1w

I could stand mere seconds of that video. Wow.

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.