RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
But none of that really makes it worthy to carry the Defender name.
Can i just say this is by far the most pretentious thing i have EVER read on PH! Well done 300!I'm old enough to remember the Series vehicles being replaced by the coil sprung 90 & 110, and guess what back then, people just like you were writing in to magazines moaning and complaining the new car wasn't a "proper landrover" and how could LR kill off the totally amazing and not in anyway completely outclassed and left behind by every other vehicle leaf sprung Series models.
So, get a grip man. The new Defender is the product of a LOT of effort by a lot of people who really do care about the marques history and have tried to do their best to make the model sit into the lineage as best they can, but with an eye to the future rather than to the past, which is, funnily enough, precisely what they did so successfully in 1983, despite the dyed-in-the-wool, stick-in-the-muds(sic) beardies thinking otherwise! What is certain though, is that the new model has a much shorter life cycle than those 1983 reboots.
_Neal_ said:
Jimbo89 said:
Jader1973 said:
If this is real and not just a show car for Frankfurt then there is a "commercial" version, which presumably doesn't have rear seats, and I'd expect it comes with some sort of plastic tub liner thing in the boot for dead sheep etc given they've thought of every other possible accessory, like the Loadspace Full Protection Liner.
The more I look at this the more awesome I think it is.ETA - PH, you know it's "straw poll" not "straw pole", right?
Edited by _Neal_ on Wednesday 11th September 12:35
Companies dont really give a flying about whether something is regarded as a "proper" whatever by fundamentalists, they care whether it sells to keep money flowing in of those who can buy one, shareholders happy and folk paid.
They will exploit their past, to achieve this if there is a spot in the market it can occupy.
Heard it about Minis, Fiat 500s, Mustangs and now Land Rovers, it gets bit tiresome really as all those things in their original form couldn't exist for various reasons and nobody in their right mind would buy one as they dont work any more as anything other than nostalgia, the Land Rover was 1940s tech dragged into the 1980s.
This is the new version, created by the company that still exists for one reason or another, and they have produced it, therefore, its a Land Rover.
Its not that long in the scheme of things, seventy years ? can see how religions start, just because we have a fondness and affinity for something from when we were younger doesn't mean it cant be improved on and the new one is s
t, its different, it has to be as mentioned.
Think misty eyed nostalgia is a part of the reason we are in the current clusterfk politically, someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way, apart from maybe being horrible to drive on the road once the novelty wears off, why not just say "I am more familiar with the old one and change frightens me a bit, why cant everything be like the good old days" ?
I like the old and the new, you dont have to choose one and vehemently decry the other, I like old Landies, new one looks pretty good, see, not hard !
They will exploit their past, to achieve this if there is a spot in the market it can occupy.
Heard it about Minis, Fiat 500s, Mustangs and now Land Rovers, it gets bit tiresome really as all those things in their original form couldn't exist for various reasons and nobody in their right mind would buy one as they dont work any more as anything other than nostalgia, the Land Rover was 1940s tech dragged into the 1980s.
This is the new version, created by the company that still exists for one reason or another, and they have produced it, therefore, its a Land Rover.
Its not that long in the scheme of things, seventy years ? can see how religions start, just because we have a fondness and affinity for something from when we were younger doesn't mean it cant be improved on and the new one is s
t, its different, it has to be as mentioned. Think misty eyed nostalgia is a part of the reason we are in the current clusterf
k politically, someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way, apart from maybe being horrible to drive on the road once the novelty wears off, why not just say "I am more familiar with the old one and change frightens me a bit, why cant everything be like the good old days" ? I like the old and the new, you dont have to choose one and vehemently decry the other, I like old Landies, new one looks pretty good, see, not hard !
RacerMike said:
Wow. So you're that specific? Only an actual Defender will do? You don't even recognise the original Land Rover as worthy of the same association. So specifically you'd basically only have accepted Land Rover making an actual 1980s Defender continuation?
try posting on a dedicated Land Rover forum that the Defender was first built in the 1940's and see what sort of response you get.NomduJour said:
Absolutely 100% true - I’ve just spent a load of money on my old Range Rover (fully rebushed, EAS rebuilt, bigger ARBs, quick ratio steering box, solid steering rods, new shocks etc), and it will still be objectively rubbish by any contemporary standards. Just like your Jimny will be.
I strongly suspect that you haven’t spent much time in new cars, or you’re wilfully ignorant to their advances. Similar story about wanting a stripped-out, utilitarian car - how many new twin-cabs are manual, don’t have electric everything, cruise, touch-screens etc?
Maybe it's more I'm not a sheep and quite happy to make my own assessment and judgments, rather than blindly following the masses, just because....I strongly suspect that you haven’t spent much time in new cars, or you’re wilfully ignorant to their advances. Similar story about wanting a stripped-out, utilitarian car - how many new twin-cabs are manual, don’t have electric everything, cruise, touch-screens etc?
Or maybe you haven't spent much time in different types of vehicles either?
300bhp/ton said:
Maybe it's more I'm not a sheep and quite happy to make my own assessment and judgments, rather than blindly following the masses, just because....
Not that I disagree entirely on all your points about the new Defender, but there is something amusing about characterising people as sheep if they like a vehicle to which an apparent primary objection is its unsuitability for carrying sheep.300bhp/ton said:
Maybe it's more I'm not a sheep and quite happy to make my own assessment and judgments, rather than blindly following the masses, just because....
Or maybe you haven't spent much time in different types of vehicles either?
I strongly suspect it’s because you are, actually, an idiot.Or maybe you haven't spent much time in different types of vehicles either?
J4CKO said:
Companies dont really give a flying about whether something is regarded as a "proper" whatever by fundamentalists, they care whether it sells to keep money flowing in of those who can buy one, shareholders happy and folk paid.
They will exploit their past, to achieve this if there is a spot in the market it can occupy.
Heard it about Minis, Fiat 500s, Mustangs and now Land Rovers, it gets bit tiresome really as all those things in their original form couldn't exist for various reasons and nobody in their right mind would buy one as they dont work any more as anything other than nostalgia, the Land Rover was 1940s tech dragged into the 1980s.
This is the new version, created by the company that still exists for one reason or another, and they have produced it, therefore, its a Land Rover.
Its not that long in the scheme of things, seventy years ? can see how religions start, just because we have a fondness and affinity for something from when we were younger doesn't mean it cant be improved on and the new one is st, its different, it has to be as mentioned.
Think misty eyed nostalgia is a part of the reason we are in the current clusterfk politically, someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way, apart from maybe being horrible to drive on the road once the novelty wears off, why not just say "I am more familiar with the old one and change frightens me a bit, why cant everything be like the good old days" ?
I like the old and the new, you dont have to choose one and vehemently decry the other, I like old Landies, new one looks pretty good, see, not hard !
Bang on - the pathological of anything new and misplaced nostaglia for all things in the "good old days that never were" i recognise in some many people, and in so many "discussions" (see Anything On EV Ever) - but personally just cannot related to it, one bit. We evolve, we make better things; we make better things now at a rate never seen before ever human history - that's a good thing, isn't it!?They will exploit their past, to achieve this if there is a spot in the market it can occupy.
Heard it about Minis, Fiat 500s, Mustangs and now Land Rovers, it gets bit tiresome really as all those things in their original form couldn't exist for various reasons and nobody in their right mind would buy one as they dont work any more as anything other than nostalgia, the Land Rover was 1940s tech dragged into the 1980s.
This is the new version, created by the company that still exists for one reason or another, and they have produced it, therefore, its a Land Rover.
Its not that long in the scheme of things, seventy years ? can see how religions start, just because we have a fondness and affinity for something from when we were younger doesn't mean it cant be improved on and the new one is s
t, its different, it has to be as mentioned. Think misty eyed nostalgia is a part of the reason we are in the current clusterf
k politically, someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way, apart from maybe being horrible to drive on the road once the novelty wears off, why not just say "I am more familiar with the old one and change frightens me a bit, why cant everything be like the good old days" ? I like the old and the new, you dont have to choose one and vehemently decry the other, I like old Landies, new one looks pretty good, see, not hard !
Now i like beautiful older things, and i badly want a 1998 Honda NSX in my garage - but i'd be under no illusions it's objectively better than a modern car. An appreciation of the past is different to a desire to see no change.
Maybe stems from people not being as happy as when they were kids - so want everything from back then to be the same(before they could see the things from the past that were rubbish for what they are) :if so cheer up, and go for a drive!
I believe a certain poster is exhibiting traits of...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kr...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kr...
cidered77 said:
Now i like beautiful older things, and i badly want a 1998 Honda NSX in my garage - but i'd be under no illusions it's objectively better than a modern car. An appreciation of the past is different to a desire to see no change.
The NSX is a good example for me, as would be a Skyline GTR. I really like the old ones, but a current NSX or GTR just doesn't interest me.Whereas there are other cars that I like the old classic one, and I'd quite fancy the new version.
That's all it is for me, really. I'd want an old Defender. I don't want a new one.
In no way means it isn't a good car, or its not the right car for JLR to build etc etc.
Jimbo89 said:
In your opinion. In my opinion this is a great way to keep the hertiage alive of a product that any other company would have just stopped making.
I think you are getting confused with what I'm saying. I'm not saying I don't like this vehicle. Stop taking it so personally ffs.But what exactly "heritage" wise is this vehicle continuing or promoting? It is indeed a capable vehicle, but it is in no way following the lineage of the 1948 80 thru to the 2016 Defender. It is a vehicle for a completely different market segment, aimed at a completely different use and more than likely, largely a different owner base as well.
People bemoaned and whinged when the MG badge was used on things like the Maestro, Montego or even the ZR/ZS of latter years. Despite the fact MG had an established history building family orientated saloon cars and despite that all the MG branded versions of these cars were actually good vehicles in their own rights and generally an improvement from the more vanilla offerings.
Peoples reaction (and there are loads of examples on PH), were that, MG was a sports car maker and it is sacrilege to put the MG badge on such vehicles as those. The Defender and it's predecessors have never been upmarket luxo family based vehicles intended for the Urban environment.
So again, specifically what part of the Land Rover heritage in terms of making utility, agricultural, military, basic, rough and ready off roaders is this new vehicle following? Apart from sticking a name on the bonnet.
Does it maybe follow the modular design, allowing vehicles to be easily adapted from one configuration to another?
Does it continue the use of Birmabright?
Have they even managed the simple thing of keeping round headlights with separate sidelight/indicators? Or are the headlights more square like the 1989 Discovery.
spreadsheet monkey said:
Define "better" 
Why are people willing to pay more for a restored 1970s 911 than a brand new one?
In fairness, some people are. I think they sell something like 35,000 911s worldwide per year, and I'm betting a lot of people buying them wouldn't want an old one at half the cost, never mind more.Why are people willing to pay more for a restored 1970s 911 than a brand new one?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff