Do you need anything more than a 320d?

[Welshbeef]

Fastdruid said:

Not really because you keep changing your mind. You asked for examples that beat 128BHP/litre. I gave you 3 and one common engine that nearly matches it off the top of my head.

If you want the RS6 V10 *does* have pretty rubbish BHP/litre because that's not what they aimed for when they designed it.

But on that same last point that's exactly the same arguemebt to be used for diesels it just happens that they are drastically improving.

Remember the 54bhp Sierra 2.3 diesel...a whole 23.5bhp/ltr worst heap of junk I've ever had the unfortunate pleasure to drive.

[Fastdruid]

Or the Ferrari 488 GTB 169.4 BHP/Litre

Or the N/A Ferrari 458 125BHP/Litre

[Fastdruid]

Welshbeef said:

Fastdruid said:

Not really because you keep changing your mind. You asked for examples that beat 128BHP/litre. I gave you 3 and one common engine that nearly matches it off the top of my head.

If you want the RS6 V10 *does* have pretty rubbish BHP/litre because that's not what they aimed for when they designed it.

But on that same last point that's exactly the same arguemebt to be used for diesels it just happens that they are drastically improving.

Remember the 54bhp Sierra 2.3 diesel...a whole 23.5bhp/ltr worst heap of junk I've ever had the unfortunate pleasure to drive.

BHP per litre is totally and utterly irrelevant apart from playing top trumps.

Oh and no never had the "pleasure", *the* worst car I've had the unfortunate pleasure to drive was a 318d (E90).

[T0MMY]

Welshbeef said:

Sorry I forgot the 550d engine so OEM 385bhp from 3ltr (you can remap it to 450bhp if you wished). But this OEM output is 128bhp/ltr which is dry high indeed.

Looking forward to you providing a sample of forced induction petrol a which beat this -

How about a bog standard Impreza Sti or Evo from 20 years ago, 135-140bhp/litre and capable of a lot more?

If you want something more modern you'd be looking close to 200bhp/litre for various standard FI petrol cars. All the other cars you mention are in a very mild state of tune indeed when you consider the number of cars that manage higher specific outputs without forced induction.

In all seriousness, I actually can't believe we're even arguing about whether similarly sized petrol or diesel turbo engines can make more power, it's obviously the former. That's not to say diesels don't have some advantages, but as a simple statement of fact it's undeniable.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

wormus said:

Welshbeef said:

Sorry I forgot the 550d engine so OEM 385bhp from 3ltr (you can remap it to 450bhp if you wished). But this OEM output is 128bhp/ltr which is dry high indeed.

Looking forward to you providing a sample of forced induction petrol a which beat this -

The 2017 Ford GT will be powered by a 3.5L eco boost petrol making 600hp. Diesels will always be second best to petrols.

I'd call that a supercar/hypercar? Certainly in the 200mph club -- anyway that offers up 171bhp/ltr



Let's compare the M5 v 550d
550d is 128bhp/ltr
M5 is a 560bhp with 4.4 ltrs .... Guess what specific output it has....127bhp/ltr
That was chosen purely by chance

There is far more to an M5 than that. The two don't even compare I'm afraid.

[Welshbeef]

St John Smythe said:

There is far more to an M5 than that. The two don't even compare I'm afraid.

I wonder IF BMW made the outputs per ltr near identical or it just happened that way?
Do they have more profit in the 550d over the Halo M5 model?

Totally agree they are not competitors in any way - just that the M5 is in a very lowly state of tune way lower than a 20 year old Impreza car.

[T0MMY]

Ares said:

Well you need to improve your reading

Handling wasn't mentioned, nor was nervousness on the road, .....and if keen drivers only change gears themselves, then there are a lot of supercars that won't appeal to keen drivers.

....or your version of keen driving is different to other peoples.

I never said it was mentioned, I was using it as an analogy as you mentioned a couple of things that I would think would appeal to keen drivers as being unappealing...I was playing with how far you could take it before just saying it wasn't a car for keen drivers.

My version of keen driving is zero driver aids in as light a car as possible with the liveliest handling balance possible so no, supercars really don't appeal to me.

Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 8th July 22:07

[lostkiwi]

Welshbeef said:

M550d is 381bhp (corrected) so 127bhp/ltr
Hartage upgrade takes this to 438bhp so that is 146bhp/ltr not far off the Ford GT mentioned earlier and significantly above the M5.



Also those posting up pea shooter capacity engines v a 3ltr lets play in the same ball park else let's post up Radio Controlled car turbo engines or turno hybusa units.

You asked for production petrol cars with better bhp per litre than the ones you mentioned. You didn't like the answer I gave so you dismiss it even though it fit the criteria.

What's more the ones given were run of the mill and nothing overly exotic and cost less than the BMWs.

Some people just can't deal with the truth that patrols produce more power for a given capacity than diesels.

Just deal with it.

[Welshbeef]

lostkiwi said:

You asked for production petrol cars with better bhp per litre than the ones you mentioned. You didn't like the answer I gave so you dismiss it even though it fit the criteria.

What's more the ones given were run of the mill and nothing overly exotic and cost less than the BMWs.

Some people just can't deal with the truth that patrols produce more power for a given capacity than diesels.

Just deal with it.

I have

The v8 & v10 RS6 m5 Ford GT 335i S4's are rubbish as run of the mill cars have superior engine output per specific Ltr.

What's your views on any very fast big capacity blown petrol which has similar BHP/ltr to the M550d non remapped yet pea shooter engines are much superior in output?

[T0MMY]

Welshbeef said:

I have

The v8 & v10 RS6 m5 Ford GT 335i S4's are rubbish as run of the mill cars have superior engine output per specific Ltr.

What's your views on any very fast big capacity blown petrol which has similar BHP/ltr to the M550d non remapped yet pea shooter engines are much superior in output?

Oh come on, now you're just being childish, no one said those engines are rubbish just because they aren't that highly strung. The point is simply about whether diesels or petrols can make more power, however obvious the answer clearly is.

Interestingly I googled the highest specific output diesel engine and it seems it is indeed this BMW engine we're talking about. Given the number of petrol cars I can think of that will beat it, even just off the top of my head and without getting into exotica, I'm wondering why we're even arguing.

Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 8th July 22:35

[Welshbeef]

T0MMY said:

Oh come on, now you're just being childish, no one said those engines are rubbish just because they aren't that highly strung. The point is simply about whether diesels or petrols make more power, however obvious the answer clearly is.

Interestingly I googled the highest specific output diesel engine and it seems it is indeed this BMW engine we're talking about. Given the number of petrol cars I can think of that will beat it, even just off the top of my head and without getting into exotica, I'm wondering why we're even arguing.

Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 8th July 22:34

Touché.

Agreed.

[RobM77]

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars. I would have thought once you get beyond an engine that moves you down the road ok, in a road car going beyond that is about qualitative measures such as sound and the shape of the torque curve?

[lostkiwi]

RobM77 said:

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars. I would have thought once you get beyond an engine that moves you down the road ok, in a road car going beyond that is about qualitative measures such as sound and the shape of the torque curve?

And responsiveness...? ;-)

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

just that the M5 is in a very lowly state of tune way lower than a 20 year old Impreza car.

560HP, 28 mpg, hardly shabby.

Do you think maybe there is a reason a sub 2.5L boxer 4 would be in a different state of tune than a 4.4L V8?

[whoami]

RobM77 said:

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars.

Does that not sum up the whole thread?

[RobM77]

whoami said:

RobM77 said:

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars.

Does that not sum up the whole thread?

For me, yes! That explains my choice of car.

[RobM77]

lostkiwi said:

RobM77 said:

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars. I would have thought once you get beyond an engine that moves you down the road ok, in a road car going beyond that is about qualitative measures such as sound and the shape of the torque curve?

And responsiveness...? ;-)

Of course That's a given; a car without responsiveness is for me completely pointless. When I owned my 330ci I often used to just take the train instead.

[cerb4.5lee]

RobM77 said:

lostkiwi said:

RobM77 said:

Isn't it a bit of a pointless argument with such big heavy cars anyway? Especially road cars. I would have thought once you get beyond an engine that moves you down the road ok, in a road car going beyond that is about qualitative measures such as sound and the shape of the torque curve?

And responsiveness...? ;-)

Of course That's a given; a car without responsiveness is for me completely pointless. When I owned my 330ci I often used to just take the train instead.

A train or even walking would win for me too if I had to use a 320d everyday...I often used to say when I had my 520d that I enjoyed walking more rather than sitting behind that crappy engine.

[Atmospheric]

it's got all the hallmarks of a classic Cringeworthy thread;

• Willy waving remapped derv torque talk
• Petrol vs diesel, with the conclusion that derv is inferior (again)
• Diesel PHers in denial and then use a diversionary tactic by talking about each other's bodies and looking at them on beaches when the argument has failed
• A usually drunk poster on about completely irrelevant BHP/litre

Cringeworthy thread, you are sorely missed

[Welshbeef]

cerb4.5lee said:

A train or even walking would win for me too if I had to use a 320d everyday...I often used to say when I had my 520d that I enjoyed walking more rather than sitting behind that crappy engine.

Well until the strikes are on - just like today and tomorrow with further action to come.


What do you dislike?
It's best part of 140-150mph
It's low 7 seconds to 62mph
It can give remarkable efficiency depending on how you drive it
Sounds like a first world problem to me


Did you drive the Sierra 2.3Diesel? That was horrible - no modern car is a bad car they are reliable comfortable and get the job done.

Walking commutes don't exist for pretty much everyone - I had that once for a while not good in the rain especially with puddles on the road and heavy traffic into it