IOM TT 2018 Car Lap record run?
Discussion
GroundEffect said:
I didn't mean chicanes, I meant the high speed "threading the needle" style corners that there's tonnes of on the TT. Cars have to give those a bit more consideration simply due to width.
I’ve watched the fast lap of the Suburu and given the speedo was shown the entire time the above doesn’t ring true - or Mark Higgins has a big cock and balls and thought to hell with giving those corners a bit more consideration. If you could rewatch that video and give the rough times in the video so we can all review and either agree with you or call Bull s
t it will close that arguements off. coppice said:
I assume poster was either 13 or worked as an Autosport journalist . The reality is that the 919 didn't destroy anything , literally or metaphorically. It certainly didn't set a new lap record at Spa or the Ring - lap records are set in races , not even in qualifying - so the best we can say is that it set an unofficial time which no other one off special in a private, traffic free, test session has yet beaten... Amazing speed , but the only thing it can beat is itself.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116169_porsche-919-on-goodbye-tour-destroys-hamiltons-spa-lap-recordNormal way of talking this way
stevesingo said:
The width of the road is negated by the car's ability to generate more cornering force.
If we say a bike generates about 1g of cornering force, a 100m radius bend would have a max speed of 70mph.
Given that the car is wider, the effective radius will be reduced by about 5m. So if the car did not have down force and was limited to the same 1g of cornering force, it would be limited to 68mph. Slower!
But, a car such as the 919, which will probably develop at least 1.5g at a relatively low speed, will be able to negotiate the same 95m radius at 84mph. Significantly faster.
When we think about faster corners, 150 mph threading the needle, the bike (still limited to about 1g) could negotiate a corner of approx. 455m radius.
A 919 will be generating 3+g of cornering force at such speed. As such the 450m radius corner could be negotiated at 255mph which is excess of the 919's max, so absolutely flat.
Spinning at around, at 3g a 150m radius corner is possible at 150mph. At 1g a 155m radius corner is possible at 88mph.
Even if we have to modify the 919 so much (to account for a few bumps) that we lose 33% of the down force and limit it to 2g we car negotiate the corner at 124mph!
Just to be clear. Even accounting for an extra 2.5m of width of the 919, a corner which a bike takes at 88mph, the 919 will be doing at worst 124mph.
Do you have examples of the fastest lap recorded and examples of corners the rider covers at x speed which we could mathematically compare to a car and say this car would be identical to that bikes lap as such any superior car would be monumentally quicker If we say a bike generates about 1g of cornering force, a 100m radius bend would have a max speed of 70mph.
Given that the car is wider, the effective radius will be reduced by about 5m. So if the car did not have down force and was limited to the same 1g of cornering force, it would be limited to 68mph. Slower!
But, a car such as the 919, which will probably develop at least 1.5g at a relatively low speed, will be able to negotiate the same 95m radius at 84mph. Significantly faster.
When we think about faster corners, 150 mph threading the needle, the bike (still limited to about 1g) could negotiate a corner of approx. 455m radius.
A 919 will be generating 3+g of cornering force at such speed. As such the 450m radius corner could be negotiated at 255mph which is excess of the 919's max, so absolutely flat.
Spinning at around, at 3g a 150m radius corner is possible at 150mph. At 1g a 155m radius corner is possible at 88mph.
Even if we have to modify the 919 so much (to account for a few bumps) that we lose 33% of the down force and limit it to 2g we car negotiate the corner at 124mph!
Just to be clear. Even accounting for an extra 2.5m of width of the 919, a corner which a bike takes at 88mph, the 919 will be doing at worst 124mph.
ZX10R NIN said:
Not even close to any other race circuit in fact it's worse as an example we run our bikes stiffer at the NW200 & Ulster GP than we do at the TT, even with a NW200 setup in the bike we're still softer than we would be at a track like Oulton/Brands.
We also use road bikes as the homologation bikes that you can buy are to stiff & then if you brazed the frame like some do your rider would be coming in after 2 laps calling it unrideable & suffering from arm pump.
As for pulling the other one come over to the TT/Manx/Southern100 & I'll take you round on the back then you can see for yourself.
Mark Higgins did a great job with their Time Attack car they spent half a million on the car that was running around 650bhp when they set the record, I was very impressed with the time, professionalism & friendliness they had towards us, there wasn't a time we couldn't have a chat with them & vice versa.
But the fact remains they're time is slower than that of a Supersport 600 & at the time just beat it.
Do I think a 919evo properly setup would beat it, yes I do but not buy as much as you think, Dean Harrison was on for a 136mph lap on the second of the superbike race but clutch slip set in.
The cars width would hamper it through some sections as would the fact they'd be running less downforce as they'd have to let the suspension work which would mean they wouldn't want it grounding out like they do at race tracks, my estimate would be a 142mph lap.
Anyone thinking Subaru didn't give it their all are kidding themselves the amount of people that were there the hierarchy that came over from Japan to see it meant that they were giving it their all.
They brought a car capable of running 700bhp to try & beat the records of bikes running 135/210/235bhp yes the bikes only weigh around 200kgs but 700 horses pushing along 1100kgs is no joke.
Just look at the vehicle you're having to get to beat a modified production bike.
It only had two of the three scheduled runs and in the video he does state there was more time to get out of it - how much we will now never know. We also use road bikes as the homologation bikes that you can buy are to stiff & then if you brazed the frame like some do your rider would be coming in after 2 laps calling it unrideable & suffering from arm pump.
As for pulling the other one come over to the TT/Manx/Southern100 & I'll take you round on the back then you can see for yourself.
Mark Higgins did a great job with their Time Attack car they spent half a million on the car that was running around 650bhp when they set the record, I was very impressed with the time, professionalism & friendliness they had towards us, there wasn't a time we couldn't have a chat with them & vice versa.
But the fact remains they're time is slower than that of a Supersport 600 & at the time just beat it.
Do I think a 919evo properly setup would beat it, yes I do but not buy as much as you think, Dean Harrison was on for a 136mph lap on the second of the superbike race but clutch slip set in.
The cars width would hamper it through some sections as would the fact they'd be running less downforce as they'd have to let the suspension work which would mean they wouldn't want it grounding out like they do at race tracks, my estimate would be a 142mph lap.
Anyone thinking Subaru didn't give it their all are kidding themselves the amount of people that were there the hierarchy that came over from Japan to see it meant that they were giving it their all.
They brought a car capable of running 700bhp to try & beat the records of bikes running 135/210/235bhp yes the bikes only weigh around 200kgs but 700 horses pushing along 1100kgs is no joke.
Just look at the vehicle you're having to get to beat a modified production bike.
I get the impression due to two years and no amark H or anyone even there to try that it’s not even on the table by the organisers OR more importantly the sponsors.
That last run by Mark might be the last time we ever see it as sooner or later TT will be banned.
wormus said:
blade7 said:
Having a car that should theoretically do it, and finding someone capable that would risk their life to prove a £1m sledgehammer may crack a walnut seems pretty pointless.
Agreed. As I said many pages back, it’s the fact the bike racing looks so ludicrous and insane up close that’s the draw. Personally I couldn’t car less that a £1m car could do a faster lap, which assuming it didn’t fall to pieces on the way round or crash, it undoubtedly would.I’m loving the tosh that Cars “fall to bits” on the TT. Given there has been 3 different time attack cars
Rover 627i Vitesse 174 mighty BHP to crack the 100mph
Mk1 Suburu
Mk2 Suburu
None fell to bits so given a tiny sample it’s a 100% non failure rate whereas at the TT this year I saw on tv a number of bikes implode engines gearboxes and destroy brakes
Olivera said:
The Porsche 919 program cost Porsche somewhere in the region of $200m per season for 4 seasons, so it's closer to an $800m car 
But loading up the vast R&D which will flow into the car production is muddying the water a lot. Scrap the hybrid in it and put in a supercharged and turbo charged motor to make 1,200bhp wouldn’t be that expensive.
Also at $800m I’m guessing reliability was superb / 100% mechanical reliability in all their endurance races only crashes being DNF reasons
RB Will said:
As you are so involved in the TT I want to believe you and respect your input but it rocks me a bit when you make clearly false statements.
Watch the video of the lap.
Mark is foot flat to the floor at 170+ airborne and I didn’t watch the whole lap just now but numerous other jumps where he isn’t backing off.
As for kerbs he hits most of them over 100mph and one at over 160mph, he is 2 wheels on the dirt at 140mph.
Nobody has said the bikes have to use kerbs which is why we are baffled that the bikers use the fact that there are kerbs there as a reason why a car can’t cope, as if the car has to crash into them, but as shown even when it does at considerable speed there is no harm to the car.
Here are a few lovely pics of Mark backing off over the jumps
Those cars must have broken apart just after the picture was taken hahaWatch the video of the lap.
Mark is foot flat to the floor at 170+ airborne and I didn’t watch the whole lap just now but numerous other jumps where he isn’t backing off.
As for kerbs he hits most of them over 100mph and one at over 160mph, he is 2 wheels on the dirt at 140mph.
Nobody has said the bikes have to use kerbs which is why we are baffled that the bikers use the fact that there are kerbs there as a reason why a car can’t cope, as if the car has to crash into them, but as shown even when it does at considerable speed there is no harm to the car.
Here are a few lovely pics of Mark backing off over the jumps
ZX10R NIN said:
I never said he backed off for every jump around the course that would be stupid & if you & others took me saying "They can't handle jumps (at which point I should have clarified I was referring to a 919 type of car) then MH had to back off at certain points" as one then that's my fault for bad grammar & not being more clear.
I stand by what I said MH did have to back off for certain points, my guess is mainly for car position purposes.
I'll ask again if the car is the faster how is it that the 650bhp 1100kg with active Aero slick tyres & pretty much every trick in the book thrown at it car (yes I know it's based on a production car but was nothing like a production car when it arrived at the IOM) couldn't beat a lightly modified production 600cc motorbike on treaded tyres which produces 135bhp & 265kgs?
I'm not having a go I'm genuinely interested in as to why that is, if as you say he was hitting the kerbs at 100mph that's impressive Anstey ran on the grass & up the kerb on his 133mph lap definitely not something to recommend on a bike.
I'm enjoying the debate & it's opened my eyes to a few things about cars so all good.
Wasn’t the point about the 919 Evo that it had so much downforce it simply wouldn’t be jumping over road bumps/humps. I’d imagine smash a wheel into a kerb it would lift somewhat but that’s a guess. I stand by what I said MH did have to back off for certain points, my guess is mainly for car position purposes.
I'll ask again if the car is the faster how is it that the 650bhp 1100kg with active Aero slick tyres & pretty much every trick in the book thrown at it car (yes I know it's based on a production car but was nothing like a production car when it arrived at the IOM) couldn't beat a lightly modified production 600cc motorbike on treaded tyres which produces 135bhp & 265kgs?
I'm not having a go I'm genuinely interested in as to why that is, if as you say he was hitting the kerbs at 100mph that's impressive Anstey ran on the grass & up the kerb on his 133mph lap definitely not something to recommend on a bike.
I'm enjoying the debate & it's opened my eyes to a few things about cars so all good.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Wednesday 3rd October 15:38
Another angle isn’t it true that riders have to take the corners at specific angles on public roads as they certainly wouldn’t want the tyres gripping (or not) the white line and then tarmac then white line so a tighter turn or a run wide turn or hold back pinning the throttle due to lack of grip - whereas a car it’s a vastly lesser issue and at worst only 50% impact.
RB Will said:
I'm interested to explore this too. As if the info is correct then the car has a significantly better PWR and everything else in its favour so should be well ahead.
It would be interesting to have a full lap of video/ telemetry from various bikes to compare to the car so we could see where the time is being gained or lost. I seem to have trouble finding these on Youtube if you know of any recent ones?
Another thought I have just had is do we have anything verifying the power of the Subaru?
I know Subaru stated about 550 and you have said they told you 650-700bhp but I just dont know if that stacks up. It must have some incredible drag or something.
Comparing it to a car like the GT2 RS. The Porsche has about 700bhp but weighs about 500kg more so has a significantly worse PWR. You would think that, combined all the benefits to cornering and braking light weight brings and with the Subaru basically being a race car and set up specifically to lap the Ring it would have been quicker but the Porsche beats it by 10 secs. I cant remember the figures I worked out before in this thread but I recall the Porsche being significantly quicker in acceleration and top speed.
Surely the answer is circuit familiarity - he only did 2 laps in it at pace (or was it actually two laps in total?). MH even states in the video that even as the car was ie without increasing power it would have gone quicker as he knew areas where he could push on harder for longer and brake later etc. It would be interesting to have a full lap of video/ telemetry from various bikes to compare to the car so we could see where the time is being gained or lost. I seem to have trouble finding these on Youtube if you know of any recent ones?
Another thought I have just had is do we have anything verifying the power of the Subaru?
I know Subaru stated about 550 and you have said they told you 650-700bhp but I just dont know if that stacks up. It must have some incredible drag or something.
Comparing it to a car like the GT2 RS. The Porsche has about 700bhp but weighs about 500kg more so has a significantly worse PWR. You would think that, combined all the benefits to cornering and braking light weight brings and with the Subaru basically being a race car and set up specifically to lap the Ring it would have been quicker but the Porsche beats it by 10 secs. I cant remember the figures I worked out before in this thread but I recall the Porsche being significantly quicker in acceleration and top speed.
The difference between the first and second run it’s huge.
ZX10R NIN said:
Excuse my ignorance as I know nothing about Hillclimb cars but wouldn't they be just as affected by losing their aero grip as you jack the car up to cope with the course as an F3 car?
Have a gland at Any YouTube vids of hill climb cars the surface is narrow bumpy off camber roads with kerbs manholes etcBlack prince one key thing you’ve overlooked the ring time of 6.57 was set with the car on maximum boost the max average lap time round IOM TT was set with c100bhp down it was keeping that last increase until the last run - which never happened due to an accident /death / black flagging the circuit.
He even stated in the video with boost as it was he had more time comfortably as his confidence grew. The ring time on the other hand was loads of laps at maximum attack.
A question is what did the suburb do the ring lap with the lower power setting?
Also let’s hold that thought and assume it did IOM TT on maximum boost (which it didn’t) and also did 6.57 then the E63S 5.5bhp bi Turbo 575bhp did the ring time in 7.45::18.
Old suburb did the 1.18 lap time with 197bhp/tonne
https://fastestlaps.com/models/subaru-wrx-sti
E63S has 292bhp/tonne and 4x4
https://fastestlaps.com/models/mercedes-benz-e-63-...
The suburb had 510bhp/tonne
He even stated in the video with boost as it was he had more time comfortably as his confidence grew. The ring time on the other hand was loads of laps at maximum attack.
A question is what did the suburb do the ring lap with the lower power setting?
Also let’s hold that thought and assume it did IOM TT on maximum boost (which it didn’t) and also did 6.57 then the E63S 5.5bhp bi Turbo 575bhp did the ring time in 7.45::18.
Old suburb did the 1.18 lap time with 197bhp/tonne
https://fastestlaps.com/models/subaru-wrx-sti
E63S has 292bhp/tonne and 4x4
https://fastestlaps.com/models/mercedes-benz-e-63-...
The suburb had 510bhp/tonne
ZX10R NIN said:
Ramble away my friend.
The point you missed when talking about the Supersports is that they have lost power over the last few years due to regulations changes but they've got faster, Superbikes have gained around 25bhp over the last decade but have been the same for the last five years.
That was my point the bikes are regulated & still make the lap times.
The Subaru was around 320 on it's first run & around 600bhp on it's last along with it's active aero etc & lighter chassis, it was still slower than a restricted SS.
The lap speed for the bikes over the last few years has mainly come from the chassis & tyres, with better power deployment thrown into the mix.
It didn’t do the last run run 3 which would have had 600bhp so it Eleanor with 550bhp or less. Still lots but not what it had around the ring. The point you missed when talking about the Supersports is that they have lost power over the last few years due to regulations changes but they've got faster, Superbikes have gained around 25bhp over the last decade but have been the same for the last five years.
That was my point the bikes are regulated & still make the lap times.
The Subaru was around 320 on it's first run & around 600bhp on it's last along with it's active aero etc & lighter chassis, it was still slower than a restricted SS.
The lap speed for the bikes over the last few years has mainly come from the chassis & tyres, with better power deployment thrown into the mix.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 29th December 19:54
ZX10R NIN said:
Run 3 was going to be full power which is nighon 700bhp they were running around 600bhp (that was from the engineers & Mr Higgins himself) I'd have loved to see that 700 run as it would've been a corker.
Does anyone know if the 6.57 ring time was 600 or 700bhp?Higgins did say in the video that even with the power as it was there was plenty more time that could be found with a few more runs.
I think it’s sad that it appears we will not see any more car runs on the IOM TT - Honda with the wonderful Civic Type R didn’t bother nor did whoever held it last year a shame. Who knows 2050 year could be the next run
blade7 said:
Not sure why people waste time posting they don’t like the comparison or discussion and yet they clearly are interested enough to click the thread and then to read and then to post.... certainly interested
warch said:
Welshbeef said:
It’s curious they didn’t run it in maximum attack at the ring 6:57 with”only” 600bhp or 510bhp/tonne v nearly 600bhp/tonne and possibly longer top gear gearing how much quicker would that have been again.
I know, I don't know why these racers are pissing about going slower when they could simply add more power/higher gearing and go faster. His 3rd run at IOM TT was cancelled due to a death of one of he bikers - he had run at 600bhp and the plan was to run the final run at 700bhp maximum attack.
Not sure what you miss here?
The curious aspect is why did Suburu use only 600bhp mode for the ring when clearly the 700bhp version would be quicker and certainly able to last the ring distance of it was designed to complete the TT.
wormus said:
It's not a race track and bears no resemblance to any purpose built circuit. These are public roads used by tractors, HGVs and people going about their daily business. I was there yesterday having spent a week over Christmas and in some places, the pot holes are as bad as you'd see on the road outside your house. They obviously repair these in spring every year. However, it's not wide or flat or any of the other things you'd see on a short circuit. That's why it's called road racing.
It's like saying, I can drive my golf ball further with my 3 wood than you can hit your cricket ball with your bat. Therefore, if I were to play cricket with my golf clubs, I'd win!
Any vehicle smashing into a pothole at racing speed - well NSL is going to have an incident possibly serious. It's like saying, I can drive my golf ball further with my 3 wood than you can hit your cricket ball with your bat. Therefore, if I were to play cricket with my golf clubs, I'd win!
Edited by wormus on Sunday 30th December 13:00
I’d wager if a bike hits a pothole the possible outcome will be far worse/uncontrollable ie one wheel ruined only 1 left and possibly only steering left.
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