CTR ep3.....thoughts
Discussion
Pre facelift ones are far from perfect in terms of reliability.
I remember mine needing 3 new steering racks, 3 new power steering control units, a new exhaust manifold, new gearbox, 4 new alloy wheels, new rear suspension arms, re-painted bonnet, the most annoying rattle from inside the dash that took many visits to fix and that's about all I can remember from the list.
I remember mine needing 3 new steering racks, 3 new power steering control units, a new exhaust manifold, new gearbox, 4 new alloy wheels, new rear suspension arms, re-painted bonnet, the most annoying rattle from inside the dash that took many visits to fix and that's about all I can remember from the list.
As above. Mine was shockingly poor by Alfa Romeo standards, never mind Honda. The front suspension ended up being replaced, the engine drank twice as much oil as my RX8s, the paint was by far the worst I've ever owned (mismatched, chips, bubbling, hazing etc etc), the bonnet and sills started corroding after 3 years and the actual driving experience really wasn't anything to write home about. Biggest culprit was the 11th hour decision to not include the LSD that the Japanese market received, meaning a hasty reconfiguring of suspension settings resulting in a front and rear that felt like they were off two different cars. The front suspension felt like it had twice the travel of the rear, and was twice as soft. The rear was treacherously lift off happy and very difficult to catch, not helped by steering that was as much life in it as Michael Jackson. In short, and 7 years after I got rid of it, I have to say that it was crap.
£5k buys a far better looked after Accord Type R or Prelude VTEC, if you want to go with a Honda, and both are actually built well. I traded my EP3 in for an RX8 and it was a better car in every way bar fuel consumption (20mpg vs 26mpg). You can pick up a 56 reg RX8 230 for just over £5k now BTW.
£5k buys a far better looked after Accord Type R or Prelude VTEC, if you want to go with a Honda, and both are actually built well. I traded my EP3 in for an RX8 and it was a better car in every way bar fuel consumption (20mpg vs 26mpg). You can pick up a 56 reg RX8 230 for just over £5k now BTW.
Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 11th August 17:09
A friend of mine wanted to buy one and ended up with the FN2! I'm not sure how that had happened as I always thought the EP3 was supposed to be the better driver's car, though I do prefer the looks of the FN2. I suppose part of what turns me off the EP3 is fact there are so many of them around! But I've considered buying one before and I probably still would. The reliability is not as bombproof as they are made out to be, but plenty have seen lots of abuse from chavvy owners and still tick over so they aren't too bad on that front!
The only issue for me is the VTEC engine in general. It's quite fun having to really wring it's neck to get the best out of it and when the new lift profile comes in it is a noticeable moment. But I prefer the main bulk of torque to start lower in the power band and continue throughout it as opposed to being locked away at the top end. Thats great if you're confident there isn't anything on the other side of that bend, but if you come round and find you've got a hazard you'll go off the boil quicker and lose that power and lack the punch to press on without dropping a gear. On the track though it is surely a fantastic engine. My MX5 was much the same in that it had to be driven over 4000rpm to get the best of it and backing off for a hazard could cause an irritating 'fizzling out'!
The only issue for me is the VTEC engine in general. It's quite fun having to really wring it's neck to get the best out of it and when the new lift profile comes in it is a noticeable moment. But I prefer the main bulk of torque to start lower in the power band and continue throughout it as opposed to being locked away at the top end. Thats great if you're confident there isn't anything on the other side of that bend, but if you come round and find you've got a hazard you'll go off the boil quicker and lose that power and lack the punch to press on without dropping a gear. On the track though it is surely a fantastic engine. My MX5 was much the same in that it had to be driven over 4000rpm to get the best of it and backing off for a hazard could cause an irritating 'fizzling out'!
TameRacingDriver said:
How about it harming the handling, making them less involving, worsening fuel consumption, requiring bigger brakes, wheels and tyres, and being harder on them, which in turn makes them more expensive to run and giving worse ride quality, and finally after all that, not really being any faster as a result (note that the 0-100 time of the CTR is barely any worse than many of the fat hatches you talk about) .
There's more to driving enjoyment than BHP figures.
let me see ive gone for a car thats 200kg heavier then my ep3 wasThere's more to driving enjoyment than BHP figures.
Handling - nothing in them really
Less involving - nothing to do with weight thats just usually the car in general
Worse fuel consumption - i averaged 30mpg witgh my ep3 im not averaging 29mpg and have 100bhp more
Requiring bigger brakes - again depends on the car and the brakes they use in the first place but the ones on the MPS are way better then the ep3 and no more expensive
Bigger wheels and tyres which leads to higher running costs - I haven;t had to change my tyres yet and ive done 10k miles so far, when we say more expensive are we talking £10-£30 a tyre depending on the brand
Ride quality been worse - No the MPS is deffo 10x better in this department to
Not really any faster - http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel175-1388.htm yes i see what you mean... not forgetting that for the sake of £400 of mods you can be up 30-50bhp
After owning both there are only two downsides to going to an MPS one is the tax and the other is the gearbox as i loved the one in the ep3 everything else gets truly destoryed in everyway
So presumably we are talking about the 3 mps then... the same car that I am yet to read a good comment on about its handling so I don't buy that.
If you've got 100 bhp then yours is hardly standard! 0-100 of a CTR is about 16 seconds... I don't even need to look at your link to know that a standard 3 mps wont be a million miles ahead (note the standard bit there).
And you've admitted that it will likely cost more to change tyres at least.
And the brakes on the CTR are really very good. If not then they are knackered. With less weight they'll likely cope better with track work than a car 200 kg heavier.
Sorry you still don't persuade me. And fwiw I don't particularly like the CTR much myself; the ITR is MUCH better.
If you've got 100 bhp then yours is hardly standard! 0-100 of a CTR is about 16 seconds... I don't even need to look at your link to know that a standard 3 mps wont be a million miles ahead (note the standard bit there).
And you've admitted that it will likely cost more to change tyres at least.
And the brakes on the CTR are really very good. If not then they are knackered. With less weight they'll likely cope better with track work than a car 200 kg heavier.
Sorry you still don't persuade me. And fwiw I don't particularly like the CTR much myself; the ITR is MUCH better.
TameRacingDriver said:
So presumably we are talking about the 3 mps then... the same car that I am yet to read a good comment on about its handling so I don't buy that.
If you've got 100 bhp then yours is hardly standard! 0-100 of a CTR is about 16 seconds... I don't even need to look at your link to know that a standard 3 mps wont be a million miles ahead (note the standard bit there).
And you've admitted that it will likely cost more to change tyres at least.
And the brakes on the CTR are really very good. If not then they are knackered. With less weight they'll likely cope better with track work than a car 200 kg heavier.
Sorry you still don't persuade me. And fwiw I don't particularly like the CTR much myself; the ITR is MUCH better.
I like that bit about reading and not actually driving lolIf you've got 100 bhp then yours is hardly standard! 0-100 of a CTR is about 16 seconds... I don't even need to look at your link to know that a standard 3 mps wont be a million miles ahead (note the standard bit there).
And you've admitted that it will likely cost more to change tyres at least.
And the brakes on the CTR are really very good. If not then they are knackered. With less weight they'll likely cope better with track work than a car 200 kg heavier.
Sorry you still don't persuade me. And fwiw I don't particularly like the CTR much myself; the ITR is MUCH better.
standard mps will hit 100 in the low 14's put that on the road and its quite a big distance
If you think the brakes are good on the CTR then check the braking tests vs the mps it loses two of the tests and only draws one so for a car thats 200kg heavier, the track times for the mps are alot better then the CTR so for something that doesn't handle cant stop etc something seems a miss somewhere?
Yes mine is far from standard as i said ive chucked £400 at it, which means ive gone away from most hot hatches not aqnd onto passing evo's etc
TameRacingDriver said:
So presumably we are talking about the 3 mps then... the same car that I am yet to read a good comment on about its handling so I don't buy that.
LOL, you haven't driven an EP3, have you? They really aren't anything like as good as some people like to claim, and certainly considerably worse than the ATR or ITRs.The MPS isn't a Renaultsport, but nor is it as "bad" as the usual UK mags make out. In fact, you just need to read reports from Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand to see that the rest of teh world has higher regard for it. I test drove it on two occasions and was impressed. Not impressed, enough to buy one over my current Impreza, but it was a seriously quick car with decent handling and a surprisingly composed ride. It's not the last word in precision, but neither is the Golf GTi that the British press like to masturbate over, and I've driven those in Mk5 Ed30 and Mk6 guise in the last 2 years. "Boring" and "tedious" spring to mind when I look back on the Golfs. The Mazda was better than that. As for the MPS performance, the quoted 256bhp is known to be very conservative. Most dyno nearer 280bhp, much like the Megane and Scirocco R. I've had a mildly heated over 3MPS run alongside with a rolling start in my STI 330S (which is closer to 350bhp), and it really wasn't far behind at all after 1/2 mile.
Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 11th August 19:16
TameRacingDriver said:
danneth said:
whats an extra 100-200 kgs though when your adding 60-100bhp...
How about it harming the handling, making them less involving, worsening fuel consumption, requiring bigger brakes, wheels and tyres, and being harder on them, which in turn makes them more expensive to run and giving worse ride quality, and finally after all that, not really being any faster as a result (note that the 0-100 time of the CTR is barely any worse than many of the fat hatches you talk about) .There's more to driving enjoyment than BHP figures.
If it has to be FWD. DC2 all the way. Otherwise man up and get something like a Monaro.
Ali_T said:
LOL, you haven't driven an EP3, have you? They really aren't anything like as good as some people like to claim, and certainly considerably worse than the ATR or ITRs.
Yes, I have actually, with a view to replacing my car at the time, a 182. I didn't go for it in the end. I have also owned an ITR, so I do actually know what I'm on about.The steering was pretty poor on the CTR, and I didn't like the K20 lump (nowhere near as charasmatic as the B18 in the teg)... and the car lacked character to me - so you don't have to persuade me of the fact.
Ali_T said:
The MPS isn't a Renaultsport, but nor is it as "bad" as the usual UK mags make out. In fact, you just need to read reports from Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand to see that the rest of teh world has higher regard for it. I test drove it on two occasions and was impressed. Not impressed, enough to buy one over my current Impreza, but it was a seriously quick car with decent handling and a surprisingly composed ride. It's not the last word in precision, but neither is the Golf GTi that the British press like to masturbate over, and I've driven those in Mk5 Ed30 and Mk6 guise in the last 2 years. "Boring" and "tedious" spring to mind when I look back on the Golfs. The Mazda was better than that. As for the MPS performance, the quoted 256bhp is known to be very conservative. Most dyno nearer 280bhp, much like the Megane and Scirocco R. I've had a mildly heated over 3MPS run alongside with a rolling start in my STI 330S (which is closer to 350bhp), and it really wasn't far behind at all after 1/2 mile.
Well I guess all the magazines were lying then...Ali_T said:
LOL, you haven't driven an EP3, have you? They really aren't anything like as good as some people like to claim, and certainly considerably worse than the ATR or ITRs.
The MPS isn't a Renaultsport, but nor is it as "bad" as the usual UK mags make out. In fact, you just need to read reports from Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand to see that the rest of teh world has higher regard for it. I test drove it on two occasions and was impressed. Not impressed, enough to buy one over my current Impreza, but it was a seriously quick car with decent handling and a surprisingly composed ride. It's not the last word in precision, but neither is the Golf GTi that the British press like to masturbate over, and I've driven those in Mk5 Ed30 and Mk6 guise in the last 2 years. "Boring" and "tedious" spring to mind when I look back on the Golfs. The Mazda was better than that. As for the MPS performance, the quoted 256bhp is known to be very conservative. Most dyno nearer 280bhp, much like the Megane and Scirocco R. I've had a mildly heated over 3MPS run alongside with a rolling start in my STI 330S (which is closer to 350bhp), and it really wasn't far behind at all after 1/2 mile.
Nice to see there are still some people with a unbiased sensible view aboutThe MPS isn't a Renaultsport, but nor is it as "bad" as the usual UK mags make out. In fact, you just need to read reports from Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand to see that the rest of teh world has higher regard for it. I test drove it on two occasions and was impressed. Not impressed, enough to buy one over my current Impreza, but it was a seriously quick car with decent handling and a surprisingly composed ride. It's not the last word in precision, but neither is the Golf GTi that the British press like to masturbate over, and I've driven those in Mk5 Ed30 and Mk6 guise in the last 2 years. "Boring" and "tedious" spring to mind when I look back on the Golfs. The Mazda was better than that. As for the MPS performance, the quoted 256bhp is known to be very conservative. Most dyno nearer 280bhp, much like the Megane and Scirocco R. I've had a mildly heated over 3MPS run alongside with a rolling start in my STI 330S (which is closer to 350bhp), and it really wasn't far behind at all after 1/2 mile.
Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 11th August 19:16
Ali_T said:
As above. Mine was shockingly poor by Alfa Romeo standards, never mind Honda. The front suspension ended up being replaced, the engine drank twice as much oil as my RX8s, the paint was by far the worst I've ever owned (mismatched, chips, bubbling, hazing etc etc), the bonnet and sills started corroding after 3 years and the actual driving experience really wasn't anything to write home about. Biggest culprit was the 11th hour decision to not include the LSD that the Japanese market received, meaning a hasty reconfiguring of suspension settings resulting in a front and rear that felt like they were off two different cars. The front suspension felt like it had twice the travel of the rear, and was twice as soft. The rear was treacherously lift off happy and very difficult to catch, not helped by steering that was as much life in it as Michael Jackson. In short, and 7 years after I got rid of it, I have to say that it was crap.
£5k buys a far better looked after Accord Type R or Prelude VTEC, if you want to go with a Honda, and both are actually built well. I traded my EP3 in for an RX8 and it was a better car in every way bar fuel consumption (20mpg vs 26mpg). You can pick up a 56 reg RX8 230 for just over £5k now BTW.
I can smell bias in these posts Ali, you had a bad experience with your Civic but I can guarantee more people have faced issues in the Rx8. I have had both and the Rx8 was the better car but not any quicker than the CTR and definitely not as well made. The corrosion on mine was shocking.£5k buys a far better looked after Accord Type R or Prelude VTEC, if you want to go with a Honda, and both are actually built well. I traded my EP3 in for an RX8 and it was a better car in every way bar fuel consumption (20mpg vs 26mpg). You can pick up a 56 reg RX8 230 for just over £5k now BTW.
Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 11th August 17:09
300bhp/ton said:
Not that I disagree, but where do you draw the line? I mean an EP3 is bloater compared to quite a few earlier hot hatches. And if handling was your prime concern then a fwd hatchback is unlikely to be the prime solution.
If it has to be FWD. DC2 all the way. Otherwise man up and get something like a Monaro.
True, which is why I ended up with a DC2 rather than an EP3 If it has to be FWD. DC2 all the way. Otherwise man up and get something like a Monaro.
Even then, it couldn't satisfy me forever, which is why I now drive an MR2 Turbo. Certainly no faster on a twisty B-road than most hot hatches I'm sure, but I can imagine it takes more skill, and ergo is more satisfying in the long run. My budget won't stretch to a Monaro, though, but I'm sure my car is man enough for under £2k
Back on topic, but it looks to me like Ali_T has it in for the CTR, which is fine, his opinion, but steering aside, you can't fault the CTR as a B-road weapon, particularly against most of the more modern stuff (even if it is no ITR).
I've only had an EP3 on demo (for about a week) so can't comment long-term but It's an excellent car.
Ok it won't be as sharp as the Integra but its load capacity about on par with a small van, you can drive it every day in relative comfort and your mates can come too.
The handling oddly wasn't quite as sharp as a Focus ST170 I had the following week but other than that it was leagues ahead at every level.
There will always be something bigger, faster, slightly sharper etc but as an all-round compromise, it's hard to beat as a hot hatch.
Ok it won't be as sharp as the Integra but its load capacity about on par with a small van, you can drive it every day in relative comfort and your mates can come too.
The handling oddly wasn't quite as sharp as a Focus ST170 I had the following week but other than that it was leagues ahead at every level.
There will always be something bigger, faster, slightly sharper etc but as an all-round compromise, it's hard to beat as a hot hatch.
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