Power, Now vs Then vs Reality
Discussion
Twincam16 said:
Interesting thread, especially as the first PH response to any new car launch always seems to be 'it's not powerful enough'. Then you get absurd statements calling cars like the Lotus Evora and the Toyota GT-86 (which, let's face it, are faster than 70% of anything else on the road) as 'gutless' and 'slow' as if the potential buyers only get cars with the intention of competing at Le Mans, and always have one eye on the opposing team's dyno reading.
To me it's all about feel. A car that can carry a huge amount of speed through corners often feels faster and more fun than something that delivers sledgehammer pace in a straight line, but needs braking very hard before each corner. I'm never quite convinced by this island's prediliction for lightning-fast but ultimately numb German barges with suspension designed for millpond-smooth roads, especially as our roads are quite the opposite and favour long-travel suspension and high-compression tyre sidewalls. The average French hot hatch will probably be quicker over a British B-road than, say, an Audi S3, even if the S3 has more power and is faster in a straight line.
That said, it is important to be able to 'accelerate out of trouble'. There's nothing more demoralising and potentially dangerous than finding yourself in a gutless supermini on a motorway, trying to get past huge articulated lorries, desperately rowing the thing along while being buffetted by sidewinds. However, so long as whatever it is has the power-to-weight ratio to shift its own weight acceptably in these kinds of situations, and sustain a safe cruising speed, then the driving pleasure is all about the handling.
What he said. I can't see any possible reason that my car with its apparently gutless 180bhp would need any more. It accelerates to the national speed limit as fast as one could possibly need, and can make any overtake that I am happy to do, i.e. if I had 400bhp I wouldn't go for any I wouldn't already.To me it's all about feel. A car that can carry a huge amount of speed through corners often feels faster and more fun than something that delivers sledgehammer pace in a straight line, but needs braking very hard before each corner. I'm never quite convinced by this island's prediliction for lightning-fast but ultimately numb German barges with suspension designed for millpond-smooth roads, especially as our roads are quite the opposite and favour long-travel suspension and high-compression tyre sidewalls. The average French hot hatch will probably be quicker over a British B-road than, say, an Audi S3, even if the S3 has more power and is faster in a straight line.
That said, it is important to be able to 'accelerate out of trouble'. There's nothing more demoralising and potentially dangerous than finding yourself in a gutless supermini on a motorway, trying to get past huge articulated lorries, desperately rowing the thing along while being buffetted by sidewinds. However, so long as whatever it is has the power-to-weight ratio to shift its own weight acceptably in these kinds of situations, and sustain a safe cruising speed, then the driving pleasure is all about the handling.
Caveat: I use the word need above. Need and want are two entirely independent quantities. I enjoy nailing the load pedal and doing a clarksonesque "POWER!" as much as the next overgrown 12yr old.
My cars have 950hp and 245hp respectively.
The sweet spot in the real world on UK roads is much closer to 245 than 950...
With 950 you hit the throttle for a second at a cruise speed and you are in license losing territory. Driving something with so much power on the public road is more fear than fun. It is great at the strip but that is about it.
Lower powered cars can be amazing fun, it can be a little spoiled as some point out when surrounding repmobiles decide they want to resolve their inferiority complex and start getting stupid. I just pull in wait a few and rejoin when it is nice and quiet. Being able to fully rev and work the engine and not worry so much about getting caught at silly speeds is a joy that people don't seem to appreciate in their lust for ever increased horsepower.
The sweet spot in the real world on UK roads is much closer to 245 than 950...
With 950 you hit the throttle for a second at a cruise speed and you are in license losing territory. Driving something with so much power on the public road is more fear than fun. It is great at the strip but that is about it.
Lower powered cars can be amazing fun, it can be a little spoiled as some point out when surrounding repmobiles decide they want to resolve their inferiority complex and start getting stupid. I just pull in wait a few and rejoin when it is nice and quiet. Being able to fully rev and work the engine and not worry so much about getting caught at silly speeds is a joy that people don't seem to appreciate in their lust for ever increased horsepower.
Many modern cars are slower though due to a lot more weight. Our 140hp Mondeo is no quicker than the Mk 3 Golf GTI with it's mighty 115hp and I recall a time when a Cavalier 1.6 with 90hp conveyed an impression of speed.
Much is to do with gearing - sharp off the mark but over-geared at the top end for economy, blunting the progress.
However, it's what you're used to. I used to be perfectly happy with the 175hp in my Gen 3 Z28 but when I got the gen 4 305hp Z28, it seemed slow and then when I got the 405hp Z06 the Gen 4 seemed slow and now with an infrequently driven 460hp Mustang, that seems more than fast enough but for everyday use I'm quite happy with "quickness" of the Golf's 115hp in a light and chuckable body and if I replaced it, a Suzuki Swift Sport of Panda 100hp would be likely to be the candidates.
Ultimately, I prefer smallish and chuckable to enjoy myself rather than big and powerful.
Much is to do with gearing - sharp off the mark but over-geared at the top end for economy, blunting the progress.
However, it's what you're used to. I used to be perfectly happy with the 175hp in my Gen 3 Z28 but when I got the gen 4 305hp Z28, it seemed slow and then when I got the 405hp Z06 the Gen 4 seemed slow and now with an infrequently driven 460hp Mustang, that seems more than fast enough but for everyday use I'm quite happy with "quickness" of the Golf's 115hp in a light and chuckable body and if I replaced it, a Suzuki Swift Sport of Panda 100hp would be likely to be the candidates.
Ultimately, I prefer smallish and chuckable to enjoy myself rather than big and powerful.
Edited by LuS1fer on Thursday 9th February 15:28
FisiP1 said:
My cars have 950hp and 245hp respectively.
The sweet spot in the real world on UK roads is much closer to 245 than 950...
With 950 you hit the throttle for a second at a cruise speed and you are in license losing territory. Driving something with so much power on the public road is more fear than fun. It is great at the strip but that is about it.
Lower powered cars can be amazing fun, it can be a little spoiled as some point out when surrounding repmobiles decide they want to resolve their inferiority complex and start getting stupid. I just pull in wait a few and rejoin when it is nice and quiet. Being able to fully rev and work the engine and not worry so much about getting caught at silly speeds is a joy that people don't seem to appreciate in their lust for ever increased horsepower.
I've just clicked your profile.The sweet spot in the real world on UK roads is much closer to 245 than 950...
With 950 you hit the throttle for a second at a cruise speed and you are in license losing territory. Driving something with so much power on the public road is more fear than fun. It is great at the strip but that is about it.
Lower powered cars can be amazing fun, it can be a little spoiled as some point out when surrounding repmobiles decide they want to resolve their inferiority complex and start getting stupid. I just pull in wait a few and rejoin when it is nice and quiet. Being able to fully rev and work the engine and not worry so much about getting caught at silly speeds is a joy that people don't seem to appreciate in their lust for ever increased horsepower.
A 950bhp Mustang!
I'm currently building a kit car, planned to be about a ton.
Most of the builders seem to be going for 400+HP with some going for 600+hp.
In comparison I've gone for a V8 engine with 260hp as stock (although probably be a bit nearer 280-300 with a decent exhaust), I'd rather handling over power and not being scared every time I open the throttle it'll end up backwards through a hedge. I figured frankly ~260-300hp/ton is going to be bloody quick and really don't care that a 335d (remapped) will beat me off the line. They'll still only be in a 3 series, no one will stop and stare as the mighty 335d rumbles by.
Plus I figure if I *want* the extra power I'm better off adding NOS for a twice a year 'hit'.
Most of the builders seem to be going for 400+HP with some going for 600+hp.
In comparison I've gone for a V8 engine with 260hp as stock (although probably be a bit nearer 280-300 with a decent exhaust), I'd rather handling over power and not being scared every time I open the throttle it'll end up backwards through a hedge. I figured frankly ~260-300hp/ton is going to be bloody quick and really don't care that a 335d (remapped) will beat me off the line. They'll still only be in a 3 series, no one will stop and stare as the mighty 335d rumbles by.
Plus I figure if I *want* the extra power I'm better off adding NOS for a twice a year 'hit'.
I can't come to a solid conclusion on this, personally.
On the one hand, I love the feel of pushing my car close to its limits when on a country road, and knowing that 70-80% of the time during a hoon, if I drive past a police officer I'll still be driving below the speed limit. I love being able to rev it and have to change gears in between corners.
On the other, every time I pull up at traffic lights next to something faster (which isn't exactly uncommon), I start to feel a bit... guilty? Not only do I not like knowing that if they were to race off the lights I wouldn't be able to keep up, but I also feel like my car does rather a lot of talking that it can't back up, particularly to someone who doesn't 'know' cars.
Especially given that the exhaust is blowing, so it's loud enough under throttle to make it sound very powerful (or -very- obnoxious).
On the one hand, I love the feel of pushing my car close to its limits when on a country road, and knowing that 70-80% of the time during a hoon, if I drive past a police officer I'll still be driving below the speed limit. I love being able to rev it and have to change gears in between corners.
On the other, every time I pull up at traffic lights next to something faster (which isn't exactly uncommon), I start to feel a bit... guilty? Not only do I not like knowing that if they were to race off the lights I wouldn't be able to keep up, but I also feel like my car does rather a lot of talking that it can't back up, particularly to someone who doesn't 'know' cars.
Especially given that the exhaust is blowing, so it's loud enough under throttle to make it sound very powerful (or -very- obnoxious).
Reardy Mister said:
Because there's little to compare with the feeling of wringing the neck of something. Which would you rather have, an hour thrashing around on top of Martine McCutcheon, or a flash of Angelina Jolie's tits?
Err, that's a rubbish analogy. In this case I WOULD HAVE Angelina Jolie.I love fast cars. I want them as fast as possible. I want to be scared when I get to their limits. I wanna think "f
k ME" when I floor it. I want to live my life to the full and with everything turned up to 11. I'm sorry but your "exploring the limits" of your 200bhp and redlining it in order to "feel the nirvana" sounds just.... boring. I'd rather try to tame the lion than live happily with a pussycat if we're using silly analogies
rottie102 said:
I love fast cars. I want them as fast as possible. I want to be scared when I get to their limits. I wanna think "fk ME" when I floor it. I want to live my life to the full and with everything turned up to 11.
I'm sorry but your "exploring the limits" of your 200bhp and redlining it in order to "feel the nirvana" sounds just.... boring. I'd rather try to tame the lion than live happily with a pussycat if we're using silly analogies
But you haven't tried it, so you wouldn't know. k ME" when I floor it. I want to live my life to the full and with everything turned up to 11. I'm sorry but your "exploring the limits" of your 200bhp and redlining it in order to "feel the nirvana" sounds just.... boring. I'd rather try to tame the lion than live happily with a pussycat if we're using silly analogies
rottie102 said:
Just because it sounds cool on PH? 
I don't understand why would anyone want to limit the horsepower. The throttle doesn't work 0/1. If the car is driveable (as in doesn't require triple plate clutch, drag gearbox etc) I'm more than happy to drive a 1000hp car at 20%, just so I can use ALL THE POWER three times a year.
From a manufacturer's standpoint, this poses a problem. Anyone is free to mod his own car to such power levels, but the mfrs have some legal responsibility to ensure their cars are safe and fit for purpose (ie, extending that 1000hp in a responsible manner, and durably under the terms of a warranty). As such, this starts a vicious cycle of adding more and more weight. Net effect...something like a Bugatti Veyron. Fun car I'm sure, but not exactly in the cards if you value agility, light feel, superb feedback, etc. You're basically lugging around a crapload of weight for the rare .00000001% of the time that you will expend anything even remotely close to 50% of the power. Your steering feels leaden thanks to massive tires/wheels designed to cope with the power, and you'll have less chance to feel the wheels braking loose thanks to all of that grip.I don't understand why would anyone want to limit the horsepower. The throttle doesn't work 0/1. If the car is driveable (as in doesn't require triple plate clutch, drag gearbox etc) I'm more than happy to drive a 1000hp car at 20%, just so I can use ALL THE POWER three times a year.
Speaking of power and Veyrons, David Vivian of Evo had an interesting editorial in which he describes how the Veyron's power card can fade over time. It was utterly incredible the first few launches, but after that, he felt it was actually starting to feel a bit slow. Especially at the wide open expanses of Bruntingthorpe. So this indicates that outright speed is no more important than the context of which it is happening.
Edited by Guibo on Friday 10th February 00:25
otolith said:
I see people on this and other forums describing 200bhp in 1200kg 25k entry level sporting coupe as "underpowered", and think people have just completely lost touch with reality.
disagree.200Bhp in 1200Kg's is not going to set the world on fire.
200Bhp in 750Kg's is 'fun'
300Bhp in 750Kg's is 'exciting'
400Bhp in 750Kg's is 'fast'
now do the same with a typical 1,400+kg's car and you get the point.
it's all relative...
Scuffers said:
otolith said:
I see people on this and other forums describing 200bhp in 1200kg 25k entry level sporting coupe as "underpowered", and think people have just completely lost touch with reality.
disagree.200Bhp in 1200Kg's is not going to set the world on fire.
In what situation do you feel that you would need (rather than want) more power/acceleration to be able to make good progress?
Other than on the Autobahn (when it would 'only' manage ~130mph downhill and 120+ cruise on the flat on a hot day with the air con on), even my former Mondeo TDCI estate was fairly adequate for most enthusiastic driving. It wasn't FAST at all, but it never struggled uphill or to overtake slow moving vehicles. My previous lighter car with ~80bhp more was quicker in a straight line, but from A-B, without going mad on straights, not that much faster.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 10th February 08:35
rottie102 said:
Reardy Mister said:
Because there's little to compare with the feeling of wringing the neck of something. Which would you rather have, an hour thrashing around on top of Martine McCutcheon, or a flash of Angelina Jolie's tits?
Err, that's a rubbish analogy. In this case I WOULD HAVE Angelina Jolie.Rawwr said:
Scuffers said:
200Bhp in 1200Kg's is not going to set the world on fire.
True but for a trained, competent driver it should be more than enough to hoon about with without any real issues. You surely can't disagree with that?In the last 20 years, tires have moved on massively, put graph old three on a car now, its a completely different story.
(reminds me of monkey Harris on spacesavers)
Edited by Scuffers on Friday 10th February 08:40
Yes, I think I need to be lent a greater than 400 bhp car for a week and then report back with my findings, I will do this for free because thats the kind of guy I am.
Sure it would be fun, but whether it is worth the extra cost and risk to licence, hmm, reamin to be convinced.
I drove a Ferrari 360 on an experience day, very nice but didnt feel that astoundingly rapid, 996 Turbo was more my cup of tea but the electronics did reign it in very abruptly.
I think what makes cars feel faster is the surroundings, anyone can hoof a car down an empty dual carriageway but hedges and stuff make it feel like you are travelling a lot faster, as does it being dark I find.
Sure it would be fun, but whether it is worth the extra cost and risk to licence, hmm, reamin to be convinced.
I drove a Ferrari 360 on an experience day, very nice but didnt feel that astoundingly rapid, 996 Turbo was more my cup of tea but the electronics did reign it in very abruptly.
I think what makes cars feel faster is the surroundings, anyone can hoof a car down an empty dual carriageway but hedges and stuff make it feel like you are travelling a lot faster, as does it being dark I find.
Rawwr said:
2thumbs said:
I think he needs to drive a 400bhp car & have a re think 
What exactly is stopping you use the full rev range in a 400bhp car, that isn't there in a 200bhp car?
Heh, I've driven many, many >400bhp cars and, as I said, I'd rather drive a 200bhp at 90% than 400bhp at 50%.What exactly is stopping you use the full rev range in a 400bhp car, that isn't there in a 200bhp car?
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.
2thumbs said:
I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.
Maybe it's because I've had some fairly nippy motorbikes that I've either desensitised to acceleration or just no longer find it at all exciting, more so in four-wheel options.conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff