RE: PH Blog: all you need
Discussion
Limpet said:
I really like these old VAG PD TDI lumps. The other half runs about in a 130,000 mile 52 plate Golf GT TDI 130, and engine wise, it's really quite surprising. Not fast, obviously, and very grumbly and coarse even by diesel standards if you try and extend it, but I personally think the way it punches the car along at impossibly low revs, with a complete lack of effort and drama is brilliant. It's one of those engines that is easily capable of propelling you 15-20 mph faster than you actually think you are going because it just doesn't need any revs or stoking to do what it does. Of course, neither does it have any character or emotional quality, but then in a runabout, does that matter?
Not an engine I dream about or get unduly excited about, but one I respect a heck of a lot. 50 real world mpg and 'run between services' reliability are the icing on the cake.
Absolutely......my missus has a Fabia vRS diesel with this very lump. We've had it from new and it's now showing 132k. Just passed its MOT this morning needing only a bulb! Not an engine I dream about or get unduly excited about, but one I respect a heck of a lot. 50 real world mpg and 'run between services' reliability are the icing on the cake.
One of my more memorable drives in recent years was in a loan car whilst the Furby was being serviced..................Diahatsu Charade!! What with its 3 cylinder thrum and revvy nature, ginger biscuits for wheels and comedy body roll it was an absolute hoot!
Jimbo
Agree so much its not true!
Used to work for a VW dealership and used the Passat B5 100PS and 130PS all day everday! Either version has plenty of go should you need it and with the leather interior was a wonderful place to chew up the motorway miles! Bit of a wallower through the corners but still had loads of fun.
Also they put the 130PS engine in the Polo and badged it a 'GT'. THAT was a true Jekyll and Hyde. On one hand 60+mpg with usual high VW build quality, comfy seats, air con, and other than sporty wheels and a Gt badge was quite restraint in looks dept. However ,if the mood took you, you could Mash your foot down from a stop at lights and embarrass much bigger opposition. Always brought a smile to my face
Used to work for a VW dealership and used the Passat B5 100PS and 130PS all day everday! Either version has plenty of go should you need it and with the leather interior was a wonderful place to chew up the motorway miles! Bit of a wallower through the corners but still had loads of fun.
Also they put the 130PS engine in the Polo and badged it a 'GT'. THAT was a true Jekyll and Hyde. On one hand 60+mpg with usual high VW build quality, comfy seats, air con, and other than sporty wheels and a Gt badge was quite restraint in looks dept. However ,if the mood took you, you could Mash your foot down from a stop at lights and embarrass much bigger opposition. Always brought a smile to my face
First post after reading PH for years!
Totally agree. A few years ago I owned a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo, 220 Bhp 1300 Kg so 169 BHP/Ton about perfect for use on a public road. A great cruiser and could overtake anything and everything it came across.
Since I've recently bought a Diesel where torque is clearly a more useful performance measure I think it would be interesting to consider Torque/Ton too.
For instance my new load lugger a Nissan Qashqai 2.0dci has 320NM (150Bhp) 1500kg, 213NM/ton - "Goes Well"
Cheers
Stu
Totally agree. A few years ago I owned a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo, 220 Bhp 1300 Kg so 169 BHP/Ton about perfect for use on a public road. A great cruiser and could overtake anything and everything it came across.
Since I've recently bought a Diesel where torque is clearly a more useful performance measure I think it would be interesting to consider Torque/Ton too.
For instance my new load lugger a Nissan Qashqai 2.0dci has 320NM (150Bhp) 1500kg, 213NM/ton - "Goes Well"
Cheers
Stu
[quote=Renn Sport]The only issue with the passat diesel is when you try to Left foot brake the ecu cuts power if it detects a hint of throttle. Same for heal and toe...
quote]
Yeah hate that cutting the power thing it does. Wonder if there's an option in VAGCOM to disable it?
Anyway, I have to admit I love my Passat. It's like a faithful old dog, smelly, slow, wallowly, yet does it's best and is loveable. I drive reasonably quickly and still get over 50mpg (actual). It's childish but I like it when someone in front of me tries to get away, but is surprised when they see a 9 year old Passat in the rear view, wallowing and bouncing away. My GF says it's an old man's car, but I don't care.
quote]
Yeah hate that cutting the power thing it does. Wonder if there's an option in VAGCOM to disable it?
Anyway, I have to admit I love my Passat. It's like a faithful old dog, smelly, slow, wallowly, yet does it's best and is loveable. I drive reasonably quickly and still get over 50mpg (actual). It's childish but I like it when someone in front of me tries to get away, but is surprised when they see a 9 year old Passat in the rear view, wallowing and bouncing away. My GF says it's an old man's car, but I don't care.
edward1 said:
I think the appropriate amount of specific power depends partly on the type of driving and type of roads you regularly use. For example I have a 140bhp afla diesel, this is perfectly reasonable for the usual mix of town/m/way driving and on the A/B road is fine until you get held up by the tourist doing a steady 45-50 on a road with relativly short straights.
Right idea, wrong Alfa. We've got a 159 2.4 5-pot with 260bhp (remap). Will tootle around town returning 35-40mpg but has the beans to overtake when you need to. 260bhp / 1600kg = 162.5bhp/tonI also have a Griff 500 and the article is spot on about the frustration about not being able to use the power at your disposal.
Ian A.
DJRC said:
No, people who dont undestand what he is talking about are talking about power to weight. People who know and understand that to do the M1 commute, or M25 commute or M3, A3 commute or M6 commute, every morning and know that your journey will be to the minute the same time as yesterday and tomorrow, no matter how you try and drive...they know exactly what he is talking about. People who have to travel 100+miles every day between sites and for work, up and down the major roads of the UK know exactly what he is talking about. The Passat is King in the UK at this game. Its why work car parks are stuffed with them. Not so much the debate, but the jury went out and decided this some years ago.
I've had 2 passats..both company cars...but Chris Harris is hardly a commuter is he?? So if you spend 20k on a new passat...couldn't you spend 14k on a nice E55 amg estate..offset the bigger deprecation, fuel and servicing costs? This is not a decision by a commuter, this is motoring journalist and a petrol head justifying buying a white goods estate car..but as usual it's the gospel according to St Monkey and everyone is fawning about talking about Elises and power to weight.
I don't want to get into the new V old debate I know there is no comparison...but we have a article last month about how great the passat is and now we get an article about how it's all you need... probably safe to assume he didn't pay list
...for me its not power to weight ratio that counts, it the ability to hit 90mph and know about it (on my frequent trips to the Auotbahn that is)...over this speed, my liberty and license is at peril...
My A6 Avant is a 2.0TDI Auto and weights just a shade less than the moon (i realised this when everytime i drove to the coast the tide went out)...and my MX-5 is 20 years old and not built for speed... in both cars you have to want to go fast rather than just floating there like you do in a fast car.
My A6 Avant is a 2.0TDI Auto and weights just a shade less than the moon (i realised this when everytime i drove to the coast the tide went out)...and my MX-5 is 20 years old and not built for speed... in both cars you have to want to go fast rather than just floating there like you do in a fast car.
Dagnut said:
DJRC said:
No, people who dont undestand what he is talking about are talking about power to weight. People who know and understand that to do the M1 commute, or M25 commute or M3, A3 commute or M6 commute, every morning and know that your journey will be to the minute the same time as yesterday and tomorrow, no matter how you try and drive...they know exactly what he is talking about. People who have to travel 100+miles every day between sites and for work, up and down the major roads of the UK know exactly what he is talking about. The Passat is King in the UK at this game. Its why work car parks are stuffed with them. Not so much the debate, but the jury went out and decided this some years ago.
I've had 2 passats..both company cars...but Chris Harris is hardly a commuter is he?? So if you spend 20k on a new passat...couldn't you spend 14k on a nice E55 amg estate..offset the bigger deprecation, fuel and servicing costs? This is not a decision by a commuter, this is motoring journalist and a petrol head justifying buying a white goods estate car..but as usual it's the gospel according to St Monkey and everyone is fawning about talking about Elises and power to weight.
I don't want to get into the new V old debate I know there is no comparison...but we have a article last month about how great the passat is and now we get an article about how it's all you need... probably safe to assume he didn't pay list
To be fair to Monkey aswell, he has always been a load lugging chap. Ran a few big Merc estates I think in addition to the more well publicised Porks and Gallardos. This I think is more a revelation that the humble 100pony Passat estate does the job of the E55AMG Merc for considerably less dosh and barely any less real world pace than the Merc. Or the same with that Focus. Having also run a 1.9tdi Fabia and mentioned that it was absolutely brilliant in every way, I know he is right and rather than it being a revelation, it is probably just a reflection on the reality of UK motoring and the consumer market. Namely, the consumer has worked this game out.
I have tried this and no matter how much I want to like it I lose the will to live driving cars like this.
I recently had a brand new A4 140bhp oil burner S-line Avant, so quite similar to the passat i guess, but it was so dull to drive, like controlling a washing machine...
I ended up thinking about crashing it just to inject some excitement into the driving experience. I couldnt wait to get home.
700bhp RS6 Avant, sounds like my perfect road car (a stock one would do
). Driving a high powered car at 20% all the time should give it a very long life thou.
I think I am odd ...
I recently had a brand new A4 140bhp oil burner S-line Avant, so quite similar to the passat i guess, but it was so dull to drive, like controlling a washing machine...
I ended up thinking about crashing it just to inject some excitement into the driving experience. I couldnt wait to get home.
700bhp RS6 Avant, sounds like my perfect road car (a stock one would do
). Driving a high powered car at 20% all the time should give it a very long life thou.I think I am odd ...
The question isn't how much power is enough, the question is how can we build roads that let people use the power they have available to them?
We've spent 100 years building machines that let us travel faster and faster, to achieve more in our lives with less time between stops. Yet we have, for almost all the time that the common man has been able to afford a car, restricted the speed at which we can indeed travel. We have imposed arbitrary speed limits and allowed car manufacturers and road designers to build uninspired safety solutions (because they only have to really work up to a certain artificial speed limit).
Business travel, tourism, personal time... almost every sphere of human activity would benefit from people being allowed to get between two points more quickly than they can today. Not to mention, from the perspective of PHers, the very fact that we enjoy driving fast.
We're meant to go faster, further, and yes we're meant to enjoy the buzz involved. It's how we are where we are today.
We've spent 100 years building machines that let us travel faster and faster, to achieve more in our lives with less time between stops. Yet we have, for almost all the time that the common man has been able to afford a car, restricted the speed at which we can indeed travel. We have imposed arbitrary speed limits and allowed car manufacturers and road designers to build uninspired safety solutions (because they only have to really work up to a certain artificial speed limit).
Business travel, tourism, personal time... almost every sphere of human activity would benefit from people being allowed to get between two points more quickly than they can today. Not to mention, from the perspective of PHers, the very fact that we enjoy driving fast.
We're meant to go faster, further, and yes we're meant to enjoy the buzz involved. It's how we are where we are today.
DJRC said:
But that is just a motoring journalist catching up with what the rest of us already knew.
To be fair to Monkey aswell, he has always been a load lugging chap. Ran a few big Merc estates I think in addition to the more well publicised Porks and Gallardos. This I think is more a revelation that the humble 100pony Passat estate does the job of the E55AMG Merc for considerably less dosh and barely any less real world pace than the Merc. Or the same with that Focus. Having also run a 1.9tdi Fabia and mentioned that it was absolutely brilliant in every way, I know he is right and rather than it being a revelation, it is probably just a reflection on the reality of UK motoring and the consumer market. Namely, the consumer has worked this game out.
To be fair to Monkey aswell, he has always been a load lugging chap. Ran a few big Merc estates I think in addition to the more well publicised Porks and Gallardos. This I think is more a revelation that the humble 100pony Passat estate does the job of the E55AMG Merc for considerably less dosh and barely any less real world pace than the Merc. Or the same with that Focus. Having also run a 1.9tdi Fabia and mentioned that it was absolutely brilliant in every way, I know he is right and rather than it being a revelation, it is probably just a reflection on the reality of UK motoring and the consumer market. Namely, the consumer has worked this game out.
Brilliant ...I'll wait with baited breath for next months blog about parking tickets..
sorry i've got to laugh about all this praise heaped on the B5/5.5 Passat's? i've had a couple of them both V6 Syncro's in auto and man, plus drove the 130tdi sport and also a remapped 130tdi sport.
lets cut to the chase here, the Passat is woefull car through corners, even Audi's Quattro system didn't exactly spice things up? the steering is dead, it's too light, and vague.
Ok so now we're on to perceived build quality! hmmm lets look at the Passat weaknesses:
leaks like sieve
eats suspension arms (8 arm design is bloody stupid)
PD TDI's either blow turbos or the NT75 valve qives up which leaves people thinking the turbo has gone
they all like oil and anyone says there's does't? i find hard to believe. especially on long life servicing.
the electrics aren't that great as they get older.
they're noisy, in terms of road noise, the word refined could never be associated with the B5/5.5 plat form
the head lights are like candles (even the £800 factory fit xenons aren't too great either) and if you are luucky enough to have xenons chances are one of the sensors mounted to the front and rear suspension is gubbed so they point down to their lowest setting.
ergonomics are terrible, the door is miles away from the steering wheel
the gear box gate is wide enough to get a Massey Ferguson through
the seat bases are too short and the back rest gives poor support on long journeys
remap the 130tdi to 180 bhp and it's undriveable with the bloody traction control off when pulling out of a junction, although i concede it is alot nicer to drive once its on the move. But puling out on to wet roundabouts quickly!!! ha forget it!
oh but they have blue dials and the diesels do over 50 mpg so they must be good.....
nope sorry guys, what ever floats your boat (quite literly as they are boat like to dive)
but i would not have another thank you. Also the void between say a B5 Passat and A6 C5 (which they share a lot of parts) is huge!!! No comparison interms of actual build quality and refinement. If you want a diesel trundler by an A4 or an A6.
lets cut to the chase here, the Passat is woefull car through corners, even Audi's Quattro system didn't exactly spice things up? the steering is dead, it's too light, and vague.
Ok so now we're on to perceived build quality! hmmm lets look at the Passat weaknesses:
leaks like sieve
eats suspension arms (8 arm design is bloody stupid)
PD TDI's either blow turbos or the NT75 valve qives up which leaves people thinking the turbo has gone
they all like oil and anyone says there's does't? i find hard to believe. especially on long life servicing.
the electrics aren't that great as they get older.
they're noisy, in terms of road noise, the word refined could never be associated with the B5/5.5 plat form
the head lights are like candles (even the £800 factory fit xenons aren't too great either) and if you are luucky enough to have xenons chances are one of the sensors mounted to the front and rear suspension is gubbed so they point down to their lowest setting.
ergonomics are terrible, the door is miles away from the steering wheel
the gear box gate is wide enough to get a Massey Ferguson through
the seat bases are too short and the back rest gives poor support on long journeys
remap the 130tdi to 180 bhp and it's undriveable with the bloody traction control off when pulling out of a junction, although i concede it is alot nicer to drive once its on the move. But puling out on to wet roundabouts quickly!!! ha forget it!
oh but they have blue dials and the diesels do over 50 mpg so they must be good.....
nope sorry guys, what ever floats your boat (quite literly as they are boat like to dive)
but i would not have another thank you. Also the void between say a B5 Passat and A6 C5 (which they share a lot of parts) is huge!!! No comparison interms of actual build quality and refinement. If you want a diesel trundler by an A4 or an A6.
Personally, I don't buy the maximum Power/Weight ratio thing, though the fact remains that current cars (including the fast ones) are generally too technically fast, big, heavy & control taken from the driver and given to the car.
For example, I'd never say a TVR Sagaris is too powerful or too fast because every HP and MPH, you know about and feel like you're having to work to keep it all under control.
Sadly, the buying majority want it all. Super safe, super fast, super equipped and super easy.
For example, I'd never say a TVR Sagaris is too powerful or too fast because every HP and MPH, you know about and feel like you're having to work to keep it all under control.
Sadly, the buying majority want it all. Super safe, super fast, super equipped and super easy.
I have one of these as my appliance car. Its the 150bhp v6 tdi automatic, which is fine , comfortable enough car . It is going into VW next week to have a wing replaced under warranty as I washed it a few weeks ago and a lump of rust and paint came off in my hand!
Pretty unremarkable car that just goes about its business. Just glad I have rarish 17" alloys on it and not those ones in the picture!
Pretty unremarkable car that just goes about its business. Just glad I have rarish 17" alloys on it and not those ones in the picture!
I've followed a similar way of thinking although with a slight twist. The more miles I cover, the better it is to have a slower vehicle. This helps distract me from the physical driving experience and stops me getting worked up at all manner of things including poor road surfaces, inconsiderate drivers, fuel economy, getting there on time - all that.
I must say though when I cover so many miles there are inevitable occasions where I can't help but 'give it the beans' trying to get the back end out, setting of like Alonso from the toll on the M6. The limited power saves me here, by the time I've hit the ton I'm bored and that's my speed 'fix' for a bit. In faster cars' I've found myself exploiting the cars performance more often and to greater extends - overtaking more cars, travelling on the motorway as higher cruises speeds - all asking for trouble.
So for me, lower power + high mileage commute = self preservation.
Then weekend toy becomes more enjoyable for the thrill of just driving. Power to weight becomes a bit more important but interestingly I could cope with the same 165bhp / ton in a lighter package - like on a motorbike, caterham or elise or classic car.
I must say though when I cover so many miles there are inevitable occasions where I can't help but 'give it the beans' trying to get the back end out, setting of like Alonso from the toll on the M6. The limited power saves me here, by the time I've hit the ton I'm bored and that's my speed 'fix' for a bit. In faster cars' I've found myself exploiting the cars performance more often and to greater extends - overtaking more cars, travelling on the motorway as higher cruises speeds - all asking for trouble.
So for me, lower power + high mileage commute = self preservation.
Then weekend toy becomes more enjoyable for the thrill of just driving. Power to weight becomes a bit more important but interestingly I could cope with the same 165bhp / ton in a lighter package - like on a motorbike, caterham or elise or classic car.
Triumph Man]enn Sport said:
The only issue with the passat diesel is when you try to Left foot brake the ecu cuts power if it detects a hint of throttle. Same for heal and toe...
quote]
Yeah hate that cutting the power thing it does. Wonder if there's an option in VAGCOM to disable it?
Anyway, I have to admit I love my Passat. It's like a faithful old dog, smelly, slow, wallowly, yet does it's best and is loveable. I drive reasonably quickly and still get over 50mpg (actual). It's childish but I like it when someone in front of me tries to get away, but is surprised when they see a 9 year old Passat in the rear view, wallowing and bouncing away. My GF says it's an old man's car, but I don't care.
Don't know if you can - it's how you diagnose a fly by wire accelerator on a VW diesel. Makes it impossible to scrub rusty brake discs too!quote]
Yeah hate that cutting the power thing it does. Wonder if there's an option in VAGCOM to disable it?
Anyway, I have to admit I love my Passat. It's like a faithful old dog, smelly, slow, wallowly, yet does it's best and is loveable. I drive reasonably quickly and still get over 50mpg (actual). It's childish but I like it when someone in front of me tries to get away, but is surprised when they see a 9 year old Passat in the rear view, wallowing and bouncing away. My GF says it's an old man's car, but I don't care.
On the ideal power to weight ratio I enjoyed the Caterham Roadsport 120 K-series more than a Sigma 150 which is the difference between about 220hp per ton and 280. Part of that might be that I managed a 270 spin on the A1 in the 150 so it is probably a driver issue. The newer Passats 70mph feels like 30 which is great for cruising but there is more than enough to get you in bother with your license. I remember seeing a former Chris Harris owned K-series R500 on Pistonheads, now some future blighter will be able to snap up Monkey's old Passat estate. Imagine trying to make that stick at the pub!!!
Edited by Gorbyrev on Monday 13th February 14:06
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