Discussion
R300will said:
Turn7 said:
DJC said:
The average household income is about £50k isn't it?
I bloody wish.....
XitUp said:
So all those 33 million people (other than me, Dave, Bob and my auntie, of course) couldn't do without their cars if they had to?
b
ks.
Average commute is less than 10 miles. Unless you're disabled, that is easy doable on a bike.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/series/nationa...
My mother's disabled. Cant leave the house without a car. Should she get half price fuel or be rendered housebound by the Government? There's 1.4million disabled people in this country according to some estimates and the Government is determined to kick them into work despite offering very little financial assistance and employers not wanting them, so you cant price them off the road as well.b
ks.Average commute is less than 10 miles. Unless you're disabled, that is easy doable on a bike.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/series/nationa...
You really are a moron arent you? You assume 100% of people all work in an office 10 miles from their house. Nobody works unsociable hours, nobody works in an area where they have to use a motorway to get there (bicycles arent allowed) which is odd seeing as most of them are backed up at 6pm, nobody has to do above average mileage, nobody uses their car actually for their work, nobody has to take things with them which would be impossible on a bicycle, nobody is actually unable to ride a bicycle, nobodies employment depends on their ownership of a vehicle etc etc. Your utopia is of 100% of the population all crammed into a 6 mile square with all the work in one place, people living in 6 foot boxes. Bloody communist.
You probably think self employed van drivers are mythical as well. 100% of Britains motorists could all manage perfectly well without a car? Thats a new one. Thats good. Dont you think if that were the case everybody would've done that by now? Also, if that were the case dont you think the Government would also know this and not rely on fuel taxes so much? They charge it because 33 million people have little choice but to pay it. Fact.
Now go back to bed.
johnpeat said:
All this talk of average income is bks - it means nothing at all...
Fuel Poverty is attempting to identify people who need genuine help and it seems a reasonable approach to do that.
Attempting to apply it to your ability to use an expensive 2 tonne luxury product to carry your lazy arse to the betting shop is nothing like the same thing...
You're quite an angry man.ks - it means nothing at all...Fuel Poverty is attempting to identify people who need genuine help and it seems a reasonable approach to do that.
Attempting to apply it to your ability to use an expensive 2 tonne luxury product to carry your lazy arse to the betting shop is nothing like the same thing...
It's also 830kg and I don't bet.
martin84 said:
My mother's disabled. Cant leave the house without a car. Should she get half price fuel or be rendered housebound by the Government? There's 1.4million disabled people in this country according to some estimates and the Government is determined to kick them into work despite offering very little financial assistance and employers not wanting them, so you cant price them off the road as well.
You really are a moron arent you? You assume 100% of people all work in an office 10 miles from their house. Nobody works unsociable hours, nobody works in an area where they have to use a motorway to get there (bicycles arent allowed) which is odd seeing as most of them are backed up at 6pm, nobody has to do above average mileage, nobody uses their car actually for their work, nobody has to take things with them which would be impossible on a bicycle, nobody is actually unable to ride a bicycle, nobodies employment depends on their ownership of a vehicle etc etc. Your utopia is of 100% of the population all crammed into a 6 mile square with all the work in one place, people living in 6 foot boxes. Bloody communist.
You probably think self employed van drivers are mythical as well. 100% of Britains motorists could all manage perfectly well without a car? Thats a new one. Thats good. Dont you think if that were the case everybody would've done that by now? Also, if that were the case dont you think the Government would also know this and not rely on fuel taxes so much? They charge it because 33 million people have little choice but to pay it. Fact.
Now go back to bed.
Yes, that's exactly what I said...daft You really are a moron arent you? You assume 100% of people all work in an office 10 miles from their house. Nobody works unsociable hours, nobody works in an area where they have to use a motorway to get there (bicycles arent allowed) which is odd seeing as most of them are backed up at 6pm, nobody has to do above average mileage, nobody uses their car actually for their work, nobody has to take things with them which would be impossible on a bicycle, nobody is actually unable to ride a bicycle, nobodies employment depends on their ownership of a vehicle etc etc. Your utopia is of 100% of the population all crammed into a 6 mile square with all the work in one place, people living in 6 foot boxes. Bloody communist.
You probably think self employed van drivers are mythical as well. 100% of Britains motorists could all manage perfectly well without a car? Thats a new one. Thats good. Dont you think if that were the case everybody would've done that by now? Also, if that were the case dont you think the Government would also know this and not rely on fuel taxes so much? They charge it because 33 million people have little choice but to pay it. Fact.
Now go back to bed.
.1981linley said:
Nobody could cycle if us proper road users did not pay for their upkeep via road tax.
http://ipayroadtax.com/Trolling or just thick?
Cars ARE a luxury - there are alternatives for almost every situation but people more and more believe that they are 'entitled' to their car to use as they see fit, when they like - and it's this entitlement which really irks me.
Our society has allowed itself to become dependant on private cars - the vast majority of people have one and a very large amount of people are dependant on it to get to/from work, shops and other places.
The cost of that to us as individuals and to society as a whole is ENORMOUS. We've paved vast swathes of the country just to drive and park our cars - we dedicate a significant percentage of the land we live on and our incomes to storing and running the car(s) we 'need' and we happily pollute and use up a finite resource doing it.
It's bad enough we're in this state but the idea that fuel poverty should apply to car usage - it's a step too far I think. It's bad enough that we tolerate what amounts to selfish/lazy behaviour on an epic scale - it's another for people to demand that their selfish/lazy behaviour be subsidised or deemed an 'entitlement'.
I absolutely believe that cars still represent a cheap way of doing what they do - I think too many people here have no idea what life without a car is like and couldn't even imagine a life without it's comforts - and I think that's a big part of the problem.
I won't really see petrol prices being so bad until I start to see people actively seeking alternatives and that's not really happening yet. I don't see shares in bus companies rising, I don't see bicycle/motorbike sales soaring - that, to me, suggests that whilst petrol prices are clearly an issue - they're not as bad as people make them out to be and they're nowhere near bad enough to claim 'poverty' in the same breath as being unable to heat your home or feed your family!!
Remember what your car is enabling - stop taking it for granted - hell, try savouring it a bit like you did when you first got one (and if you've never been without a car or a parent who'd drive you - get out and experience THAT before you drone...)
Our society has allowed itself to become dependant on private cars - the vast majority of people have one and a very large amount of people are dependant on it to get to/from work, shops and other places.
The cost of that to us as individuals and to society as a whole is ENORMOUS. We've paved vast swathes of the country just to drive and park our cars - we dedicate a significant percentage of the land we live on and our incomes to storing and running the car(s) we 'need' and we happily pollute and use up a finite resource doing it.
It's bad enough we're in this state but the idea that fuel poverty should apply to car usage - it's a step too far I think. It's bad enough that we tolerate what amounts to selfish/lazy behaviour on an epic scale - it's another for people to demand that their selfish/lazy behaviour be subsidised or deemed an 'entitlement'.
I absolutely believe that cars still represent a cheap way of doing what they do - I think too many people here have no idea what life without a car is like and couldn't even imagine a life without it's comforts - and I think that's a big part of the problem.
I won't really see petrol prices being so bad until I start to see people actively seeking alternatives and that's not really happening yet. I don't see shares in bus companies rising, I don't see bicycle/motorbike sales soaring - that, to me, suggests that whilst petrol prices are clearly an issue - they're not as bad as people make them out to be and they're nowhere near bad enough to claim 'poverty' in the same breath as being unable to heat your home or feed your family!!
Remember what your car is enabling - stop taking it for granted - hell, try savouring it a bit like you did when you first got one (and if you've never been without a car or a parent who'd drive you - get out and experience THAT before you drone...)
Condi said:
Rawwr said:
Wikipedia defines fuel poverty as:
"In the UK, fuel poverty is said to occur when in order to heat its home to an adequate standard of warmth a household needs to spend more than 10% of its income to maintain an adequate heating regime."
Just wondering; if the same definition was applied to petrol and diesel, how many people could claim they were in fuel poverty?
Depends on what 'adequate warmth' is. Believe my mum then if its 9 degrees outside thats enough not to need the heating. We disagree. "In the UK, fuel poverty is said to occur when in order to heat its home to an adequate standard of warmth a household needs to spend more than 10% of its income to maintain an adequate heating regime."
Just wondering; if the same definition was applied to petrol and diesel, how many people could claim they were in fuel poverty?
johnpeat said:
Cars ARE a luxury - there are alternatives for almost every situation but people more and more believe that they are 'entitled' to their car to use as they see fit, when they like - and it's this entitlement which really irks me.
Our society has allowed itself to become dependant on private cars - the vast majority of people have one and a very large amount of people are dependant on it to get to/from work, shops and other places.
The cost of that to us as individuals and to society as a whole is ENORMOUS. We've paved vast swathes of the country just to drive and park our cars - we dedicate a significant percentage of the land we live on and our incomes to storing and running the car(s) we 'need' and we happily pollute and use up a finite resource doing it.
It's bad enough we're in this state but the idea that fuel poverty should apply to car usage - it's a step too far I think. It's bad enough that we tolerate what amounts to selfish/lazy behaviour on an epic scale - it's another for people to demand that their selfish/lazy behaviour be subsidised or deemed an 'entitlement'.
I absolutely believe that cars still represent a cheap way of doing what they do - I think too many people here have no idea what life without a car is like and couldn't even imagine a life without it's comforts - and I think that's a big part of the problem.
I won't really see petrol prices being so bad until I start to see people actively seeking alternatives and that's not really happening yet. I don't see shares in bus companies rising, I don't see bicycle/motorbike sales soaring - that, to me, suggests that whilst petrol prices are clearly an issue - they're not as bad as people make them out to be and they're nowhere near bad enough to claim 'poverty' in the same breath as being unable to heat your home or feed your family!!
Remember what your car is enabling - stop taking it for granted - hell, try savouring it a bit like you did when you first got one (and if you've never been without a car or a parent who'd drive you - get out and experience THAT before you drone...)
http://www.walkingenglishman.com/links03.htmOur society has allowed itself to become dependant on private cars - the vast majority of people have one and a very large amount of people are dependant on it to get to/from work, shops and other places.
The cost of that to us as individuals and to society as a whole is ENORMOUS. We've paved vast swathes of the country just to drive and park our cars - we dedicate a significant percentage of the land we live on and our incomes to storing and running the car(s) we 'need' and we happily pollute and use up a finite resource doing it.
It's bad enough we're in this state but the idea that fuel poverty should apply to car usage - it's a step too far I think. It's bad enough that we tolerate what amounts to selfish/lazy behaviour on an epic scale - it's another for people to demand that their selfish/lazy behaviour be subsidised or deemed an 'entitlement'.
I absolutely believe that cars still represent a cheap way of doing what they do - I think too many people here have no idea what life without a car is like and couldn't even imagine a life without it's comforts - and I think that's a big part of the problem.
I won't really see petrol prices being so bad until I start to see people actively seeking alternatives and that's not really happening yet. I don't see shares in bus companies rising, I don't see bicycle/motorbike sales soaring - that, to me, suggests that whilst petrol prices are clearly an issue - they're not as bad as people make them out to be and they're nowhere near bad enough to claim 'poverty' in the same breath as being unable to heat your home or feed your family!!
Remember what your car is enabling - stop taking it for granted - hell, try savouring it a bit like you did when you first got one (and if you've never been without a car or a parent who'd drive you - get out and experience THAT before you drone...)
martin84 said:
We've made the world smaller by making things far away actually quite close
This sentence hurts my head. I know it makes sense, it's just hard to read.1981linley said:
Nobody could cycle if us proper road users did not pay for their upkeep via road tax.
Hmm, yet I cycle on the towpath, AND I pay as much "road tax" as you do (that is to say, none whatsoever, at all, not a penny, nowt, zero etc.) So wrong on both points, care to try again?
Since ditching my car for the commute and using bike & train, I have become much less bothered about the price of fuel. I noticed last week that the price had gone up to over £1.40, but even that was in passing as my car was still on the drive, with the remainder of the petrol I put in a few weeks ago still showing as having a 100 mile range. Fuel poverty for me would be if the price of pies went up too quickly.
I wanted to reply to this last night but forgot.
Fuel poverty is certainly becoming a reality in terms of transport costs now.
I work 25 miles from my flat, due to 3 defining factors..
1) Being the price of renting, its 1/2 the cost where I am, verses where I work.
2) The general council tax is cheaper where I am.
3) I have a better life outside of work, than living in a st hole of a town.
I spend £200 a month on diesel, thats just over 10% of my monthly income, if I lived in the town where I work, I would't, but I'd be paying an extra £400 on my rent minimum, not to mention the extra on council tax.
As for public transport, its expensive, the bus to the nearest train station is £1.80 each way, or was 2 years ago when I last had the displeasure of having to use it. That £1.80 to do 3 miles. The trains are even worse! Thats £1 a mile to get to the town where I work per day (£25 return)! If I wanted to take a bike to work, I'd have to get off at the town previous to the stop I wanted, which would leave me cycling 13 miles down a 60mph limit country road, or a motorway!
By comparison, my electricity bill (Don't have gas) is £50 a month!
Given the maths, its not hard to see why I live where I do.
Fuel poverty is certainly becoming a reality in terms of transport costs now.
I work 25 miles from my flat, due to 3 defining factors..
1) Being the price of renting, its 1/2 the cost where I am, verses where I work.
2) The general council tax is cheaper where I am.
3) I have a better life outside of work, than living in a s
t hole of a town.I spend £200 a month on diesel, thats just over 10% of my monthly income, if I lived in the town where I work, I would't, but I'd be paying an extra £400 on my rent minimum, not to mention the extra on council tax.
As for public transport, its expensive, the bus to the nearest train station is £1.80 each way, or was 2 years ago when I last had the displeasure of having to use it. That £1.80 to do 3 miles. The trains are even worse! Thats £1 a mile to get to the town where I work per day (£25 return)! If I wanted to take a bike to work, I'd have to get off at the town previous to the stop I wanted, which would leave me cycling 13 miles down a 60mph limit country road, or a motorway!
By comparison, my electricity bill (Don't have gas) is £50 a month!
Given the maths, its not hard to see why I live where I do.
Tyrewrecker said:
The irony is I love walking and I love driving - my point was that we get a LOT out of our cars but we're turning into whingers who don't appreciate what we're getting.On the one hand we bemoan the cost of petrol and tax - on the other hand we bemoan the time and cost of the alternatives - I think we might need to stand back a bit and weigh things up a bit better.
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