RE: Chris Harris video: Camaro ZL1 vs Mustang GT500
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
Eh.. what? I was with you right until you posted that.
I can go into Tesco here and get 99RON super unleaded. That's about 94-95 AKI.
In California I couldn't find anything higher than 91AKI for general retail sale. I'm sure if you went looking for specialist racing fuel by the drum, you could find it but you won't get it from a pump.
California is the most populous state in the whole US.
Consequently, I call bulls
t.
C
CA is a bit oddball, hence often referred to as the Nazi state. 93 octane is (or was) pretty common across the other 49 states though and with a number of places selling 99/100 octane fuel as well (although these are far more speicalised, but still available from a pump)I can go into Tesco here and get 99RON super unleaded. That's about 94-95 AKI.
In California I couldn't find anything higher than 91AKI for general retail sale. I'm sure if you went looking for specialist racing fuel by the drum, you could find it but you won't get it from a pump.
California is the most populous state in the whole US.
Consequently, I call bulls
t.C
Top top video Chris. Such level-headed "the hell with the stats, how does it *feel*?", rarely finds a significant voice on PH, drowned out by all the "M3 this" and "MX5 that" brigade. As an Aussie, the Ford vs GM debate is very familiar to me and I'll put my hands straight up and say I'm died-in-wool GM, at least outside of Europe that is.
I've driven much lower spec of both cars but agree with your findings on the interiors and finish between the two. The Camaro is a lovey place to sit and it's quite a novelty for the first 50 miles because I wasn't expecting that after the mustang. I'm surprised that your'e as ignorant of the history of the rivalry and heritage of the two badges as you claim. It would help you to understand why the Mustang persists with the live rear axle, for one. But if playing dumb helped you present to that standard of balanced and reasoned argument, I'm all for it.
Of the two, I would have the Camaro. That's as much to do with my GM loyalties as anything but also convinced its better put together and the interior belies its US muscle car roots.
Now, where was the Dodge Challenger SRT8?
At 470hp, it would have made a nice 3rd step on the ladder and completed the muscle car set. Blue Oval, The General and MOPAR.
Tonights homework, read up on your pony car history.
I've driven much lower spec of both cars but agree with your findings on the interiors and finish between the two. The Camaro is a lovey place to sit and it's quite a novelty for the first 50 miles because I wasn't expecting that after the mustang. I'm surprised that your'e as ignorant of the history of the rivalry and heritage of the two badges as you claim. It would help you to understand why the Mustang persists with the live rear axle, for one. But if playing dumb helped you present to that standard of balanced and reasoned argument, I'm all for it.
Of the two, I would have the Camaro. That's as much to do with my GM loyalties as anything but also convinced its better put together and the interior belies its US muscle car roots.
Now, where was the Dodge Challenger SRT8?
At 470hp, it would have made a nice 3rd step on the ladder and completed the muscle car set. Blue Oval, The General and MOPAR.Tonights homework, read up on your pony car history.
jonnydm said:
I know Chris won't be happy with this comment and its a bit predictable etc. and not really the point but having looked at both US list prices, I think I'd rather go with an M3...
The thing is though, it's a totally different type of car. Let's say it again six hundred and seventy horse power. The M3 is miles behind this grunt level that it's almost laughable.The M3 also starts as $60,100.00 and we all know that you'll likely add another $10k's worth of options.
The GT500 is $54,000 starting price and you probably would spec a lot less on the options list.
I admit they are priced closer than I thought, but I suspect there would still be $10,000 - 15,000 difference by the end of it.
But lets say it again... six hundred and seventy horse power.
If you want M3 performance buy a regular 5.0 411bhp Mustang GT, these start at $31.095 and offer up pretty much the same road/track performance as the BMW for half the money.
300bhp/ton said:
r1ch said:
Quite weighty though, what was it, 1800 kg for the one?
Yes, but not overly so compared to other modern cars:| 2010 BMW M3 Convertible auto | 1905kg |
|---|---|
| 2006 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano | 1753kg |
| 2012 Aston Martin Vanquish | 1739kg |
| 2011 Jaguar XKR-S Convertible | 1795kg |
E39 M5 1826 kg
E60 M5 1855 kg
F100 M5 1945 kg
Merc E63 1836 kg
Audi C5 V8 RS6 1840 kg
Audi C6 V10 RS6 2025 kg
Maserati GranTurismo 1880 kg
BMW 6 Series 650i Coupe 1734 kg
Even a 997 Porsche Turbo, specced as a PDK+Cab is a 1700 kg car
I've got a Camaro SS at the moment and previously had a Mustang GT (previous shape), over here in Abu Dhabi. Bought both of them from new.
So the Camaro is the N/A V8 6.2 litre. For me, the real standout thing and reason I bought it was the looks. I still don't think there's anything on the road that betters it for looking mean, and certainly not the Mustang. And I'd have to fork out for an Aston or Maserati at more than double the price for something which gets so much attention from passing children etc!
And it's reasonably refined and the interior quality is UK Vauxhall/Ford standard, so it's ok.
My problem with the Camaro is that, despite the independent rear end etc it's just completely numb for steering and brakes. And the Mustang was more fun to drive when you were in the mood...but almost agricultural and very clunky/old school the rest of the time.
From Chris's comments in the video, it seems these new lairy ones still have the same problems, and that's why BMWs costs so much more for what, on paper, would appear to be a lot less...you sacrifice engine power, but you get refinement, handling, quality etc. And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
So the Camaro is the N/A V8 6.2 litre. For me, the real standout thing and reason I bought it was the looks. I still don't think there's anything on the road that betters it for looking mean, and certainly not the Mustang. And I'd have to fork out for an Aston or Maserati at more than double the price for something which gets so much attention from passing children etc!
And it's reasonably refined and the interior quality is UK Vauxhall/Ford standard, so it's ok.My problem with the Camaro is that, despite the independent rear end etc it's just completely numb for steering and brakes. And the Mustang was more fun to drive when you were in the mood...but almost agricultural and very clunky/old school the rest of the time.
From Chris's comments in the video, it seems these new lairy ones still have the same problems, and that's why BMWs costs so much more for what, on paper, would appear to be a lot less...you sacrifice engine power, but you get refinement, handling, quality etc. And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
Just as a matter of note, the GT500 has 662hp, some people just like to exaggerate! What is amazing is that it still manages to avoid the US Gas Guzzler tax.
Here's Car and Driver's view:
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2012/20...
Here's Car and Driver's view:
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2012/20...
Matt UK said:
300bhp/ton said:
r1ch said:
Quite weighty though, what was it, 1800 kg for the one?
Yes, but not overly so compared to other modern cars:| 2010 BMW M3 Convertible auto | 1905kg |
|---|---|
| 2006 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano | 1753kg |
| 2012 Aston Martin Vanquish | 1739kg |
| 2011 Jaguar XKR-S Convertible | 1795kg |
E39 M5 1826 kg
E60 M5 1855 kg
F100 M5 1945 kg
Merc E63 1836 kg
Audi C5 V8 RS6 1840 kg
Audi C6 V10 RS6 2025 kg
Maserati GranTurismo 1880 kg
BMW 6 Series 650i Coupe 1734 kg
Even a 997 Porsche Turbo, specced as a PDK+Cab is a 1700 kg car
they aren't comparable to be honest, there is no getting away from >50% more power.
E38Ross said:
Matt UK said:
300bhp/ton said:
r1ch said:
Quite weighty though, what was it, 1800 kg for the one?
Yes, but not overly so compared to other modern cars:| 2010 BMW M3 Convertible auto | 1905kg |
|---|---|
| 2006 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano | 1753kg |
| 2012 Aston Martin Vanquish | 1739kg |
| 2011 Jaguar XKR-S Convertible | 1795kg |
E39 M5 1826 kg
E60 M5 1855 kg
F100 M5 1945 kg
Merc E63 1836 kg
Audi C5 V8 RS6 1840 kg
Audi C6 V10 RS6 2025 kg
Maserati GranTurismo 1880 kg
BMW 6 Series 650i Coupe 1734 kg
Even a 997 Porsche Turbo, specced as a PDK+Cab is a 1700 kg car
they aren't comparable to be honest, there is no getting away from >50% more power.
Who makes it, Massey Ferguson?
DaveH23 said:
£35,000... Isn't that a fully spec'd Golf GTI money?
However why do I think that price might double when brought over here?
Unfortunately at the moment it seems the ZL1 is not available for £35,000. I was looking into buying one, and while dealers adverise online at manufacturers suggested retail price (~$55k), it's not until I phoned them I was told they are actually asking for ~$74,000 due to demand. I was surprised to find main dealers selling above MSRP, but as they told me it's all about supply & demand, and they are selling at the $70,000+ price! However why do I think that price might double when brought over here?
Hopefully the release of the new GT500 will reduce demand for the ZL1 and bring prices back nearer MSRP!
Edited by tyke350 on Thursday 5th July 10:16
E38Ross said:
i fail to see why an M3 cab auto weight was stated....the M3 coupe manual would be a more "relevant" one to quote which i think is around 1650kgs.
Hook line and sinker - a very well done!I posted it as it's WEIGHT was relevant and it is still a powerful modern performance car. Yes you can buy lighter examples... but the reference was about WEIGHT. Just because a different M3 weighs less, doesn't make the one I listed any lighter. And to your average punter they really won't give a rats ass about one being a vert or not, it'll just be a BMW M3.
tyke350 said:
Unfortunately at the moment it seems the ZL1 is not available for £35,000. I was looking into buying one, and while dealers adverise online at manufacturers suggested retail price (~$55k), it's not until I phoned them I was told they are actually more like $74,000. I was surprised to find main dealers selling above MSRP, but as they told me it's all about supply & demand, and they are selling at the $70,000+ price!
Hopefully the release of the new GT500 will reduce demand for the ZL1 and bring prices back nearer MSRP!
In the US, this type of "scabbing" is commonplace. The dealers are not tied so can charge whatever anyone will pay for the cars. The original GT500 commanded $20000 premiums for some time. You will recall that when TG tested the Challenger, Chrysler pulled the plug and they had to buy one but it cost them a $10000 "premium".Hopefully the release of the new GT500 will reduce demand for the ZL1 and bring prices back nearer MSRP!
My view is that if people just refused to pay it universally, they wouldn't do it, but they can't help themselves.
jezzaaa said:
And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
I think this is quite a good and valid point. I guess the only thing is, it all boils down to money. If you can afford an M3, then it's no bother. But I suspect a lot of people who would opt for the blue collar offerings can't.In the UK from a dealer you can get a new 5.0 GT Premium (411bhp) for £32,995 in stock now at somewhere like Atlantic Sports cars. And probably cheaper if you go for the base GT.
For the same money you could get a BMW 318i M sport (143bhp) moderately specced or a base model BMW 320i Sport Plus (170bhp).
A better bet would be a BMW 135i M Sport with no options (306bhp).
jezzaaa said:
From Chris's comments in the video, it seems these new lairy ones still have the same problems, and that's why BMWs costs so much more for what, on paper, would appear to be a lot less...you sacrifice engine power, but you get refinement, handling, quality etc. And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
This is a perfectly valid point. There is no doubt tht there are many cars which are more compact and more accessible. I imagine a Civic Type R being wrung out would offer as much fun and that's cheaper again. Few people actually buy cars for that reason alone though.Reardy Mister said:
E38Ross said:
Matt UK said:
300bhp/ton said:
r1ch said:
Quite weighty though, what was it, 1800 kg for the one?
Yes, but not overly so compared to other modern cars:| 2010 BMW M3 Convertible auto | 1905kg |
|---|---|
| 2006 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano | 1753kg |
| 2012 Aston Martin Vanquish | 1739kg |
| 2011 Jaguar XKR-S Convertible | 1795kg |
E39 M5 1826 kg
E60 M5 1855 kg
F100 M5 1945 kg
Merc E63 1836 kg
Audi C5 V8 RS6 1840 kg
Audi C6 V10 RS6 2025 kg
Maserati GranTurismo 1880 kg
BMW 6 Series 650i Coupe 1734 kg
Even a 997 Porsche Turbo, specced as a PDK+Cab is a 1700 kg car
they aren't comparable to be honest, there is no getting away from >50% more power.
Who makes it, Massey Ferguson?
jezzaaa said:
I've got a Camaro SS at the moment and previously had a Mustang GT (previous shape), over here in Abu Dhabi. Bought both of them from new.
So the Camaro is the N/A V8 6.2 litre. For me, the real standout thing and reason I bought it was the looks. I still don't think there's anything on the road that betters it for looking mean, and certainly not the Mustang. And I'd have to fork out for an Aston or Maserati at more than double the price for something which gets so much attention from passing children etc! And it's reasonably refined and the interior quality is UK Vauxhall/Ford standard, so it's ok.
My problem with the Camaro is that, despite the independent rear end etc it's just completely numb for steering and brakes. And the Mustang was more fun to drive when you were in the mood...but almost agricultural and very clunky/old school the rest of the time.
From Chris's comments in the video, it seems these new lairy ones still have the same problems, and that's why BMWs costs so much more for what, on paper, would appear to be a lot less...you sacrifice engine power, but you get refinement, handling, quality etc. And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
Perfect environment for them..I had my brothers mustang in Dubai and it was great...I would take a mustang over a 3 series over there any day...I wouldn't fancy one in the UK but unless it was a second carSo the Camaro is the N/A V8 6.2 litre. For me, the real standout thing and reason I bought it was the looks. I still don't think there's anything on the road that betters it for looking mean, and certainly not the Mustang. And I'd have to fork out for an Aston or Maserati at more than double the price for something which gets so much attention from passing children etc!
And it's reasonably refined and the interior quality is UK Vauxhall/Ford standard, so it's ok.My problem with the Camaro is that, despite the independent rear end etc it's just completely numb for steering and brakes. And the Mustang was more fun to drive when you were in the mood...but almost agricultural and very clunky/old school the rest of the time.
From Chris's comments in the video, it seems these new lairy ones still have the same problems, and that's why BMWs costs so much more for what, on paper, would appear to be a lot less...you sacrifice engine power, but you get refinement, handling, quality etc. And having tried the Camaro/Stang, I would now choose a BMW next time despite the 'spec' downsides.
300bhp/ton said:
E38Ross said:
i fail to see why an M3 cab auto weight was stated....the M3 coupe manual would be a more "relevant" one to quote which i think is around 1650kgs.
Hook line and sinker - a very well done!I posted it as it's WEIGHT was relevant and it is still a powerful modern performance car. Yes you can buy lighter examples... but the reference was about WEIGHT. Just because a different M3 weighs less, doesn't make the one I listed any lighter. And to your average punter they really won't give a rats ass about one being a vert or not, it'll just be a BMW M3.
The M3 is so tedious though, everything about it screams Estate Agents Hairdresser from the chintzy faux vents to the bling bling rediculous wheels which are so prepostorous the car cant be driven in the snow. What good is that here?
The only people who seem to "get it" and then shout loud to be heard are the same people who were recently mugged for the thick end of £70,000, of course theyre going to love it, they have to.
The only people who seem to "get it" and then shout loud to be heard are the same people who were recently mugged for the thick end of £70,000, of course theyre going to love it, they have to.
Pistonwot said:
The M3 is so tedious though, everything about it screams Estate Agents Hairdresser from the chintzy faux vents to the bling bling rediculous wheels which are so prepostorous the car cant be driven in the snow. What good is that here?
The only people who seem to "get it" and then shout loud to be heard are the same people who were recently mugged for the thick end of £70,000, of course theyre going to love it, they have to.
Fair point, but if an M3 is shouty what an earth are these? The only people who seem to "get it" and then shout loud to be heard are the same people who were recently mugged for the thick end of £70,000, of course theyre going to love it, they have to.
The M3 conversation interests me, because it just doesn't seem relevant - American muscle cars and German sports coupes are built in different ways, to meet different needs, for different people.
It seems like working out which training shoe is best for you, and then saying 'no, actually I'll buy some brogues'.
Think about this; in Europe we don't really have much heritage or knowledge American muscle cars, yet in America they do have heritage and knowledge of German sports coupes. I suspect that a customer of one, would be unlikely to have the other on their final shortlist. In fact, they may find it a bit odd that on a UK-based car forum people are discussing them in the same breath.
I don't know this for sure, so American PHers, what say you?
It seems like working out which training shoe is best for you, and then saying 'no, actually I'll buy some brogues'.
Think about this; in Europe we don't really have much heritage or knowledge American muscle cars, yet in America they do have heritage and knowledge of German sports coupes. I suspect that a customer of one, would be unlikely to have the other on their final shortlist. In fact, they may find it a bit odd that on a UK-based car forum people are discussing them in the same breath.
I don't know this for sure, so American PHers, what say you?
E38Ross said:
i suspect you quoted it because the M3 coupe is lighter than the US coupes. the M3 convertible is an anomaly with it's ridiculously lardy folding roof. i'd never buy one.
No, I quoted it because someone said the US offerings were heavy - 1800kgs... I just provided some figures to show that vehicles you'd expect to find on UK roads that are normally considered fast/performance cars can and do indeed weigh similar amounts. No need to fall out of your tree or throw your toys out of the pram over it 
Isn't this seen as an M3 alternative?
| 2011 Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG Coupé C 204 series | 1730kg |
|---|
Or maybe:
| 2010 Audi RS5 | 1725kg |
|---|
Other Euro coupes:
| 2010 Mercedes-Benz CL 63 AMG C 216 series | 2135kg |
|---|---|
| 2012 Mercedes-Benz SL 63 AMG Performance Package R 231 series | 1845kg |
| 2010 Maserati GranTurismo MC Stradale | 1770kg |
My point being, the YES 1800kg is heavy. However there are many many European cars that are accepted as performance cars that weigh in at very similar amounts, of which few people disregard them on weight.
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