RE: Bloodhound SSC - "we're winning!"
Discussion
Agreed in full with your "The point of this project is to inspire a generation to look at engineering in a new light, and that's a positive, surely? They can't all go on to design land speed record so most will end up doing more "worthwhile" work" but disagree with "The end goal isn't necessarily going to move us forward"......don't you think this newly developed technology may lead to faster trains and other modes of transport? Man has developed from Tiger Moths, Model 'T's and Stevenson's rocket in a century or so, who's to say this leap in engineering technology won't take us to the next level within this century?
I remember as a younger man having a discussion with my late father, he was born in 1919 and passed away in 1996, we talked about how transport had changed in his life time, from the caes of the 1920'2 to the exotica of the day, from old piston engined bi-planes to Concord and rockets putting man on the moon all that in his 70 odd years. Modern man may think we are running out of steam in our technical progression, I'll bet those that travelled across the Atlantic in old Liberators and Constellations thought they were the bee's knee's, I believe that we ain't seen nothing yet.
quote=Bill]
The point of this project is to inspire a generation to look at engineering in a new light, and that's a positive, surely?They can't all go on to design land speed record so most will end up doing more "worthwhile" work.
I remember as a younger man having a discussion with my late father, he was born in 1919 and passed away in 1996, we talked about how transport had changed in his life time, from the caes of the 1920'2 to the exotica of the day, from old piston engined bi-planes to Concord and rockets putting man on the moon all that in his 70 odd years. Modern man may think we are running out of steam in our technical progression, I'll bet those that travelled across the Atlantic in old Liberators and Constellations thought they were the bee's knee's, I believe that we ain't seen nothing yet.
quote=Bill]
BarbaricAvatar said:
My opposition to the idea isn't quite as strong as that, but i don't think building a car to do 1000mph is a "great discovery".
This isn't mankind reaching for the stars or moving the species forward through technological innovation. This is a project of "Because it's there".
Thrust SSC already has the land speed record, so what's the point of Bloodhound exactly?
This is the wrong kind of inspiration to sell to children because once they've succeeded, what's next? Mach 2? Why? I don't think we should be encouraging our kids to utilise their abilities in frivolous activities that count for nothing in our evolution.
As a species we're so preoccupied with who's in the box with us, we're missing the opportunity to look outside it. The time, money and expertise that has gone into this project is to the detriment of an idea that might actually mean something.
You're missing the point. The end goal isn't necessarily going to move us forward, but things like the design methods using so much computer modelling are already pushing the boundaries of what we can do. This isn't mankind reaching for the stars or moving the species forward through technological innovation. This is a project of "Because it's there".
Thrust SSC already has the land speed record, so what's the point of Bloodhound exactly?
This is the wrong kind of inspiration to sell to children because once they've succeeded, what's next? Mach 2? Why? I don't think we should be encouraging our kids to utilise their abilities in frivolous activities that count for nothing in our evolution.
As a species we're so preoccupied with who's in the box with us, we're missing the opportunity to look outside it. The time, money and expertise that has gone into this project is to the detriment of an idea that might actually mean something.
The point of this project is to inspire a generation to look at engineering in a new light, and that's a positive, surely?They can't all go on to design land speed record so most will end up doing more "worthwhile" work.
DJRC said:
ptn said:
German said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
can't recruit engineers?
Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Any Engineers looking for good pay, job prospects and respect should learn German, simple as that. Currently need 80,000 new engineers and there are so few studying the required amount will only increase. Also every other tit cant call themselves a "waste water management engineer" (that'd make you the poo pipe unblocker then would it mate?) so its still a respected thing to do Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Ill make this very simple. If you go to Germany, find a pretty young Fraulein and a tweedy jacket, shirt and tie wearing chap and he says he is a manufacturing engineer who designs and produces high performance ducting for factories all over the world, she will still tell him he is a dull little f
ker. If the chap however says he is designs and produces jet fighters and rockets she will look at him in a more interesting light.Transport that situation to Britain and the same happens.
- Some* engineers are highly respected in Britain, just like *some* engineers are not in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Caractacus said:
thewheelman said:
Caractacus said:
richb77 said:
Without the likes of you pushing the boundaries of technology man kind would stagnate.
^^^ This, exactly. If mankind ceases to 'push the envelope' what happens?
Plain logic, really.
Bill said:
BarbaricAvatar said:
My opposition to the idea isn't quite as strong as that, but i don't think building a car to do 1000mph is a "great discovery".
This isn't mankind reaching for the stars or moving the species forward through technological innovation. This is a project of "Because it's there".
Thrust SSC already has the land speed record, so what's the point of Bloodhound exactly?
This is the wrong kind of inspiration to sell to children because once they've succeeded, what's next? Mach 2? Why? I don't think we should be encouraging our kids to utilise their abilities in frivolous activities that count for nothing in our evolution.
As a species we're so preoccupied with who's in the box with us, we're missing the opportunity to look outside it. The time, money and expertise that has gone into this project is to the detriment of an idea that might actually mean something.
You're missing the point. The end goal isn't necessarily going to move us forward, but things like the design methods using so much computer modelling are already pushing the boundaries of what we can do. This isn't mankind reaching for the stars or moving the species forward through technological innovation. This is a project of "Because it's there".
Thrust SSC already has the land speed record, so what's the point of Bloodhound exactly?
This is the wrong kind of inspiration to sell to children because once they've succeeded, what's next? Mach 2? Why? I don't think we should be encouraging our kids to utilise their abilities in frivolous activities that count for nothing in our evolution.
As a species we're so preoccupied with who's in the box with us, we're missing the opportunity to look outside it. The time, money and expertise that has gone into this project is to the detriment of an idea that might actually mean something.
The point of this project is to inspire a generation to look at engineering in a new light, and that's a positive, surely?They can't all go on to design land speed record so most will end up doing more "worthwhile" work.
ptn said:
Thanks for simplifying...
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Just to clarify a few points....I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
The term engineer is correctly used to describe someone who works in the field of engineering ( citation: OED). It does not need protection. This is how its always been.
CEng IEng etc ARE protected (engineering council) in the UK.
You do not need a degree to be an engineer even CEng. My Father is a non degree CEng with 40 years design experience.
I was following the same path until I realised that other careers pay more.
If a few degree educated engineers feel belittled by that then they need to make their own term up. Not try to nick a term thats been around for 100 + years.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 20th July 14:45
ptn said:
DJRC said:
ptn said:
German said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
can't recruit engineers?
Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Any Engineers looking for good pay, job prospects and respect should learn German, simple as that. Currently need 80,000 new engineers and there are so few studying the required amount will only increase. Also every other tit cant call themselves a "waste water management engineer" (that'd make you the poo pipe unblocker then would it mate?) so its still a respected thing to do Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Ill make this very simple. If you go to Germany, find a pretty young Fraulein and a tweedy jacket, shirt and tie wearing chap and he says he is a manufacturing engineer who designs and produces high performance ducting for factories all over the world, she will still tell him he is a dull little f
ker. If the chap however says he is designs and produces jet fighters and rockets she will look at him in a more interesting light.Transport that situation to Britain and the same happens.
- Some* engineers are highly respected in Britain, just like *some* engineers are not in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Im the guy who gets to say I piss about with planes, jet engines and rockets. In France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Austria, etc.In short all the stuff above you are talking about in theory because you heard it from someone in the pub/around the water cooler at work/on the internet, Im talking about with actual real experience.
The reality is that British engineers are the most respected engineers in the world currently and translates into how much many companies are willing to pay to get hold of us. Ive never had anyone belittle my achievements (apart from my wife) but then I often tell ppl Im just a fishmonger anyway. Their reaction is more musing.
r1ch said:
arkenphel said:
Riiiight, clearing millions of square feet of rock doesn't quite sound environmentally friendly. I'm no greenie, but just for the sake of setting a LSR it sounds rather pointlessly destructive.
Good for the local economy, I suppose, but I thought the bloodhound team were short of money...
Are you not excited about a car that does 1000mph?Good for the local economy, I suppose, but I thought the bloodhound team were short of money...
I'm more a Red Victor kinda guy
98elise said:
ptn said:
Thanks for simplifying...
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Just to clarify a few points....I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
The term engineer is correctly used to describe someone who works in the field of engineering ( citation: OED). It does not need protection. This is how its always been.
CEng IEng etc ARE protected (engineering council) in the UK.
You do not need a degree to be an engineer even CEng. My Father is a non degree CEng with 40 years design experience.
I was following the same path until I realised that other careers pay more.
If a few degree educated engineers feel belittled by that then they need to make their own term up. Not try to nick a term thats been around for 100 + years.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 20th July 14:45
Your father has obviously put a lot of time and effort into his profession and I respect him that. The fact that he has achieved CEng status without a degree isn't my issue - he is a professional engineer. It's the old fashioned view that is held of engineers within this country. It's no wonder that we are struggling to get young people involved in the profession when it is seen as a dirty job due to the many jobs that are free to use the title.
Engineering is a technologically advanced career and hopefully projects like Bloodhound will allow young people to see that.
This is a country of unsung innovators who should be held in the same stature as lawyers and doctors etc but sadly aren't.
And yes there are careers that pay more but to a lot it's not all about the money.
DJRC said:
ptn said:
DJRC said:
ptn said:
German said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
can't recruit engineers?
Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Any Engineers looking for good pay, job prospects and respect should learn German, simple as that. Currently need 80,000 new engineers and there are so few studying the required amount will only increase. Also every other tit cant call themselves a "waste water management engineer" (that'd make you the poo pipe unblocker then would it mate?) so its still a respected thing to do Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Ill make this very simple. If you go to Germany, find a pretty young Fraulein and a tweedy jacket, shirt and tie wearing chap and he says he is a manufacturing engineer who designs and produces high performance ducting for factories all over the world, she will still tell him he is a dull little f
ker. If the chap however says he is designs and produces jet fighters and rockets she will look at him in a more interesting light.Transport that situation to Britain and the same happens.
- Some* engineers are highly respected in Britain, just like *some* engineers are not in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Im the guy who gets to say I piss about with planes, jet engines and rockets. In France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Austria, etc.In short all the stuff above you are talking about in theory because you heard it from someone in the pub/around the water cooler at work/on the internet, Im talking about with actual real experience.
The reality is that British engineers are the most respected engineers in the world currently and translates into how much many companies are willing to pay to get hold of us. Ive never had anyone belittle my achievements (apart from my wife) but then I often tell ppl Im just a fishmonger anyway. Their reaction is more musing.
This does not help my fear of flying!
DJRC said:
ptn said:
DJRC said:
ptn said:
German said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
can't recruit engineers?
Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Any Engineers looking for good pay, job prospects and respect should learn German, simple as that. Currently need 80,000 new engineers and there are so few studying the required amount will only increase. Also every other tit cant call themselves a "waste water management engineer" (that'd make you the poo pipe unblocker then would it mate?) so its still a respected thing to do Seems to be one of these things that is slightly conflicting. Can't recruit engineers... Yet there are probably loads of engineers out there wanting a job... they just don't tick all the many boxes the recruitment people unrealistically expect of people. But I bet that is also because aren't willing to pay for good engineering talent. We here this argument all the time, that big companies pay top employees vast amounts of dough as a means of keeping and attracting the top "talent". Why doesn't this apply in engineering? heck it should apply in any job... you want the best, pay the best. simple.
Ill make this very simple. If you go to Germany, find a pretty young Fraulein and a tweedy jacket, shirt and tie wearing chap and he says he is a manufacturing engineer who designs and produces high performance ducting for factories all over the world, she will still tell him he is a dull little f
ker. If the chap however says he is designs and produces jet fighters and rockets she will look at him in a more interesting light.Transport that situation to Britain and the same happens.
- Some* engineers are highly respected in Britain, just like *some* engineers are not in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I'm merely saying that in Germany (as well as other countries) engineers (i.e. those with an engineering degree) earn the right to put a state recognised prefix in front of their name (Ingr) - much like a Doctor. Doctors get a lot of respect because of the jobs they do (whether interesting or not) and because people understand the hard work involved in getting to that level. Why should this be any different to the engineering profession?
Now, I don't know whether you're an engineer but judging by your response I'd say not. It's annoying having your achievements diluted by any Tom, Dick or Harry that can tighten a nut.
I'll make this very simple; the term engineer should be reserved solely for engineers.
Im the guy who gets to say I piss about with planes, jet engines and rockets. In France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Austria, etc.In short all the stuff above you are talking about in theory because you heard it from someone in the pub/around the water cooler at work/on the internet, Im talking about with actual real experience.
The reality is that British engineers are the most respected engineers in the world currently and translates into how much many companies are willing to pay to get hold of us. Ive never had anyone belittle my achievements (apart from my wife) but then I often tell ppl Im just a fishmonger anyway. Their reaction is more musing.
You don't have any basis on which to say where I get my opinions from. Like you, my comments are based on experience so I find yours rather unfair.
I notice from your profile that you live in Switzerland. Possibly that is why our views differ.
Just to add, I never said that I had been belittled. Within my profession I get respect whereas outside of it people don't know whether I design sports cars or fix toilets. It's quite hard for someone to belittle you when they aren't entirely sure what it is you do.
Captain Muppet said:
arkenphel said:
Riiiight, clearing millions of square feet of rock doesn't quite sound environmentally friendly. I'm no greenie, but just for the sake of setting a LSR it sounds rather pointlessly destructive.
Good for the local economy, I suppose, but I thought the bloodhound team were short of money...
FFS. They moved some rocks in a desert along a 12 mile strip. How distructive do you think that was for some lizards and insects? Good for the local economy, I suppose, but I thought the bloodhound team were short of money...
It just seems a shame to go somewhere possibly pristine and mess it up just for the trivial sake of a land speed record. Why not use somewhere like that desert place in the USA where it has already been used for similar stuff.
I am, of course, assuming that the desert is quite untouched. It could be the city dump, for all I know.
loudlashadjuster said:
arkenphel said:
Riiiight, clearing millions of square feet of rock doesn't quite sound environmentally friendly. I'm no greenie, but just for the sake of setting a LSR it sounds rather pointlessly destructive.
What? Moving some small pebbles and rocks a hundred metres away by hand? In the scale of 'environmental impact' that probably rates a 0.1.Everything except eating and procreation is pointless if you reduce on those terms.
If things like this don't inspire you then perhaps you're on the wrong site.
This LSR shizzle has as much relevance to us as sending a piece of fruit to Pluto.
Will we ever see rocket powered cars? No.
V8 fuel pumps in cars? No.
Is the Bloodhound great for hooning? I suspect not.
Inspiration for kids to become more science-y and results oriented is the only Win I can see here.
robinessex said:
Do I take it you don't see the point in any motorsport whatsoever then. It's only point is to be faster in a vehicle than anyone else under certain conditions.
I suppose if you put it that way, then I do see the point. I guess the LSR it a competition of sorts, helping push boundaries bla bla ...I guess it just isn't boiling my blood like it a proper race.
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