RE: The end of M
Discussion
Andrew[MG] said:
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
Precisely that. If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
Plus BMW are a business. They don't make cars, they make money, building cars is just their way of making money.
The mistake all the hardcore enthusiasts make is thinking M buyers (actually real buyers) are like them. They're not. For every one buyer who cares about tread shuffle, screaming nat asp engines and a dab of oppo, there's 100 that just want the fastest top of the range model.
Guess who BMW will therefore build for?
This is harsh towards Mr Robertson.
As a businessman, Robertson has to give his professional opinion and justification to internal and external stakeholders as to whether the car will sell in the right quantity. There are plenty of other people willing to take his job if he makes poor decisions and the business ends up with huge development costs and no income. I doubt the '///M' models generate much, if any, direct profit for BMW. In which case, I can see the perspective of the sceptics.
However, perhaps the '///M' cars be justified in terms of R&D. Letting engineers bounce around fun ideas and letting them have a bit of play does lead to great innovation, which can potentially benefit all models within BMW.
As a businessman, Robertson has to give his professional opinion and justification to internal and external stakeholders as to whether the car will sell in the right quantity. There are plenty of other people willing to take his job if he makes poor decisions and the business ends up with huge development costs and no income. I doubt the '///M' models generate much, if any, direct profit for BMW. In which case, I can see the perspective of the sceptics.
However, perhaps the '///M' cars be justified in terms of R&D. Letting engineers bounce around fun ideas and letting them have a bit of play does lead to great innovation, which can potentially benefit all models within BMW.
Andrew[MG] said:
I did say most on here, not 99%. Those who do won't be doing it that often, maybe a few roundabouts when it's wet? Most people don't drive about like they are filming an episode of 5th Gear and slide themselves round every bend in the road. At least I hope they don't!
How true. I've been driving for 25 years and racked up a lot of miles but I can only recall seeing someone get their car sideways on the road twice (excluding in snowy conditions). And I'm not sure whether on those two occasions it was deliberate or accidental. Schnellmann said:
I also question the assumption that the people that bought M cars new 10, 20 or 30 years ago were fundamentally different from the people that buy them today.
10 years ago, no.20 years ago......probably around the time that the change started.
30 years ago......very, very different to today. It was almost exclusively an enthusiast niche market back then.
Ari said:
Andrew[MG] said:
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
Precisely that. If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
Plus BMW are a business. They don't make cars, they make money, building cars is just their way of making money.
The mistake all the hardcore enthusiasts make is thinking M buyers (actually real buyers) are like them. They're not. For every one buyer who cares about tread shuffle, screaming nat asp engines and a dab of oppo, there's 100 that just want the fastest top of the range model.
Guess who BMW will therefore build for?
The guy who is buying this car will be middle aged and overwight. He'll want all the toys and all the safety nets.
And you know what - that's absolutely fine and I applaud BMW for building cars like that because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how well it can corner or how fast it can accelerate, it'll still be slower than my push bike in rush hour and just as fast as the 3 cylinder tin box whilst stuck on your favourite motorway.
If you want real driving thrills, you go out and buy an Ariel Atom/Caterham/Westfield etc.
Is it just me or....
We and journalists asked for better fuel efficiency. We want dual zone climate control, quiet cars which are comfortable on motorways, but banzai when we want them. 0-60 times at new record lows. So we have ended up with cars which weight 1.7 tonnes.
Cars with all the toys are heavy
Heavy cars need massive brakes and engines to move and stop them
In order to keep it all together, able to cope with the massive power and torque in less than perfect weather, but also make the huge weight go round corners, you need electronics
So we ended up with what we asked for, and now, for a change, we aren't happy
Every time a new car comes out and comes into an assessment against its contemporaries, someone always says "There isn't as much room in the back as in [insert larger car here]". So, the next iteration is larger.
Now, we all complain how large new cars are, and every now and then someone parks the BMW MINI next to a "proper" Mini to point how how much this has gone on.
So we ended up with what we asked for......
Did I miss something?
We and journalists asked for better fuel efficiency. We want dual zone climate control, quiet cars which are comfortable on motorways, but banzai when we want them. 0-60 times at new record lows. So we have ended up with cars which weight 1.7 tonnes.
Cars with all the toys are heavy
Heavy cars need massive brakes and engines to move and stop them
In order to keep it all together, able to cope with the massive power and torque in less than perfect weather, but also make the huge weight go round corners, you need electronics
So we ended up with what we asked for, and now, for a change, we aren't happy
Every time a new car comes out and comes into an assessment against its contemporaries, someone always says "There isn't as much room in the back as in [insert larger car here]". So, the next iteration is larger.
Now, we all complain how large new cars are, and every now and then someone parks the BMW MINI next to a "proper" Mini to point how how much this has gone on.
So we ended up with what we asked for......
Did I miss something?
[quote=car pervert]Well they killed M in the latest Bond Skyfall. Now BMW is just copying by killing their M. [/quote
I see your posts are like hens teeth and I thank heavens for that. I hope the other 16 didnt do so much damage! I may be the last person on the planet to see Skyfall but you have really spoilt it for me now!
I see your posts are like hens teeth and I thank heavens for that. I hope the other 16 didnt do so much damage! I may be the last person on the planet to see Skyfall but you have really spoilt it for me now!
car pervert said:
Well they killed M in the latest Bond Skyfall. Now BMW is just copying by killing their M.
You need to re-watch the film and pay a bit more attention by the looks of it!They killed off the old "M" and then replaced her with a new "M" at the end of the film! - Much in the same way that BMW has done with ///M's over the years.
BMW's ///M range, like Bond, has to move with the times, otherwise it becomes irrelevant, old and it's audience share will diminish.
However, a lesson BMW could learn from the latest Bond film is that sometimes, less is more!
Like Bond, BMW's ///M series have become festooned with gadgets, to a point where they have taken over too much from the driving experience.
Take the E60 M5 for example - In total there are two settings for the diff, two for the steering, three for the dampers (EDC), eleven different gearbox modes, two engine power modes and two settings for the skid control (DSC), plus the option of switching it off completely. Are you ever going to use all of them? - or is it a case of too much choice spoiling a great car?
I wonder how many owners will never actually experience the ultimate ability of the car purely because they didn't match up the perfect settings at the right time? (especially all those owners who try to do a Bond and use their new gadgets without actually reading the manual to find out how they work. JB might be able to do it in the movies, but in the real world you can miss out on an awful lot of things because you never read the manual!)
I suspect even F1 drivers would look at it all and say: "Why do I need all these settings? - in a road car!"
If BMW were to make a true, light weight, back to basics version of it's ///M series, that's focussed more on driving pleasure than having luxury toys in it, I'm sure it would sell.
Think along the lines of: Manual winding windows, no bulky Sat-Nav system adding weight,(but you can buy an ///M road atlas as an option! This book could contain advice on the most entertaining roads to drive on in Europe), manually adjusted seats, a basic, lightweight air-con system (with an air-con delete option for the true hardcore), no stereo system, a manual gearbox, lightweight panels and glass, no front fog-lights (you rarely need them anyway), etc., etc.
BMW have already made a similar car with the E46 M3 CSL, so they're aware that there's a market for them, so why don't they make more models in that sort of guise?
They could still make an ///M LUX version for those who want all the toys, whilst at the same time making an ///M Leicht versions for the hardcore fans.
When it comes to the M5, I'd like to see a version that's a bit less obvious as to what it is, much in the style of the original M5 - a wolf in sheep's clothing! - a proper Q-car. Looks like an ordinary cooking version, goes like a DTM Touring car!
As the Jason Bourne films have shown the Bond film makers, you don't need loads of gadgets to be entertaining! - in fact, a lot of people prefer the back to basics approach of doing everything yourself.
Bond has learnt this lesson, can BMW learn it too?
Schnellmann said:
Andrew[MG] said:
I did say most on here, not 99%. Those who do won't be doing it that often, maybe a few roundabouts when it's wet? Most people don't drive about like they are filming an episode of 5th Gear and slide themselves round every bend in the road. At least I hope they don't!
How true. I've been driving for 25 years and racked up a lot of miles but I can only recall seeing someone get their car sideways on the road twice (excluding in snowy conditions). And I'm not sure whether on those two occasions it was deliberate or accidental. so, they're making the 4 series so it's a bit more driver focussed and different to the 3 series and instead of people moaning that the car is too fat/dull etc they moan about the name.
PH:moaning about anything matters.
OK, so the M3 name might go, but if they're making a small, 4 seater coupe with plenty of power and a great chassis who gives a flying f
k in reality?
it's still all speculation anyway!
PH:moaning about anything matters.
OK, so the M3 name might go, but if they're making a small, 4 seater coupe with plenty of power and a great chassis who gives a flying f
k in reality?it's still all speculation anyway!
Hellbound said:
There never really has been a consistent lineage of M car.
We used to have the M3 and M5 (Z3/4M and dead M1).
Now we'll have....
1M
M2
M2 Convertible (& Gran Coupe!?)
M3
M4
M4 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M5
M6
M6 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M7(Maybe)
M8(Hopefully)
As well as...
M135i
M235i
M335i
M435i
M545i(Or summat!)
M645i
Etc.
Plus we can add on the M Sport variants, cars with M Performance parts and those front wheel drive models one of which BMW will probably turn into a hot hatch of some sort with an M badge thrown in somewhere.
So from where I stand, 'M' has gone from a handful of cars for a certain type of buyer to a whole shed load of performance cars (from track focused offerings to grand tourers and saloons).
Ignoring the loss of naturally aspirated engines and the slight dilution/diversification of the brand to bring in the moolah and cover development costs, I fail to see why this is a bad thing.
It seems 'M' is very much alive.
i love how you've missed off the original M3 convertible, original M3 saloon, M6, M535i, M5 touring (E34) etc etc to make the current market somehow seem "worse"We used to have the M3 and M5 (Z3/4M and dead M1).
Now we'll have....
1M
M2
M2 Convertible (& Gran Coupe!?)
M3
M4
M4 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M5
M6
M6 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M7(Maybe)
M8(Hopefully)
As well as...
M135i
M235i
M335i
M435i
M545i(Or summat!)
M645i
Etc.
Plus we can add on the M Sport variants, cars with M Performance parts and those front wheel drive models one of which BMW will probably turn into a hot hatch of some sort with an M badge thrown in somewhere.
So from where I stand, 'M' has gone from a handful of cars for a certain type of buyer to a whole shed load of performance cars (from track focused offerings to grand tourers and saloons).
Ignoring the loss of naturally aspirated engines and the slight dilution/diversification of the brand to bring in the moolah and cover development costs, I fail to see why this is a bad thing.
It seems 'M' is very much alive.
Edited by Hellbound on Monday 10th December 09:30
Hellbound said:
I think buyers are intelligent enough to look at the actual car and not focus entirely on the badge. They also know the difference between something that's M Sport and model with a proper M designation.
I don't think they do, for most buyers it goes something like this :- Need a BMW on the drive rather than a Vauxhall/Citroen etc
- Need an 'M' in the name because it doesn't cost much more and ensures I don't get beaten in golf club one-upmanship
- Definitely need to be able to connect my iphone and maybe warm my bum (don't want a poverty spec base model)
- Don't care about ride quality, all-weather practicality or if it's actually a 118d
As actual driving machines, they don't really care. Unlike most people on here.
Ari said:
Precisely that.
Plus BMW are a business. They don't make cars, they make money, building cars is just their way of making money.
The mistake all the hardcore enthusiasts make is thinking M buyers (actually real buyers) are like them. They're not. For every one buyer who cares about tread shuffle, screaming nat asp engines and a dab of oppo, there's 100 that just want the fastest top of the range model.
Guess who BMW will therefore build for?
This. Well said.Plus BMW are a business. They don't make cars, they make money, building cars is just their way of making money.
The mistake all the hardcore enthusiasts make is thinking M buyers (actually real buyers) are like them. They're not. For every one buyer who cares about tread shuffle, screaming nat asp engines and a dab of oppo, there's 100 that just want the fastest top of the range model.
Guess who BMW will therefore build for?
4rephill said:
Think along the lines of: Manual winding windows, no bulky Sat-Nav system adding weight,(but you can buy an ///M road atlas as an option! This book could contain advice on the most entertaining roads to drive on in Europe), manually adjusted seats, a basic, lightweight air-con system (with an air-con delete option for the true hardcore), no stereo system, a manual gearbox, lightweight panels and glass, no front fog-lights (you rarely need them anyway), etc., etc.
BMW have already made a similar car with the E46 M3 CSL, so they're aware that there's a market for them, so why don't they make more models in that sort of guise?
What's the point? The cars as they are sell very well, and are excellent at what they do. If the above is what you are looking for, buy a Lotus.BMW have already made a similar car with the E46 M3 CSL, so they're aware that there's a market for them, so why don't they make more models in that sort of guise?
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