RE: Alfa 4C Spider - Detroit 2015

[errek72]

If they were priced identically on my market, with the same road tax and insurance costs, I would step out and say I would take an Exige S over a 4C. To me it looks just as good in the real, it is slightly faster and its electric gardians are as good or better, but above all, it sounds a lot better, and with the interior pack also looks better on the inside - more Italian somehow. I am a sucker for all that.
I also suspect it will clear speedbumps more easily or less dramatically badly than the 4C.

However, the Exige creaks, rattles, and does not do anything particularly better than the 4C. The steering is different but just as nervous, just in another way. I will probably miss that turbo kick and the dramatics of the 4C. And the reactions.

[Europa1]

otolith said:

chelme said:

Ha! :-) Essentially, the vehicle gives the impression it was manufactured in some small shed. This is the problem with the brand IMO. Neither the style (which is 15 years old) nor the quality of the materials used (not to mention the lack of equipment) justifies £43-53k. Combine this with an engine from Toyota, well, you may get my gist. It just doesn't cut it for me. IMO Lotus needs an Esprit with its own homegrown/heavily modified engine, but hey, this is another discussion well trodden.

I think ultimately you pays yer money and takes yer choice. For a low volume manufacturer, a tried and tested engine from a mass market manufacturer makes a lot of sense. Even with Porsche volumes there is a history of chocolate engines, and TVR's excursion into engine manufacture was not entirely successful. I'd rather the money was spent elsewhere, really. The interior materials are functional if not pretty. It's not something that really bothers me, being ultimately very superficial, but it does seem to be something Lotus could win sales by changing. The construction materials I'm fine with - I'd rather have the 4C's fibreglass body on carbon tub construction than the Lotus's fibreglass on aluminium, and I'd rather either to a steel monocoque, but it wouldn't be a major factor in choosing.

I'm with Otolith on this one. For a small manufacturer, the costs associated with any in-house produced or heavily bespoked engine are ruinous. Yes, I know under Dany Bahar they hired Wolff Zimmerman (such a good name!) from AMG and were developing their own engine for new Esprit, but that was as a substantial part of an £800m investment programme.

[kambites]

Whilst the Exige's engine and gearbox might be lifted from a Toyota, they're infinitely more desirable than the setup in the 4C to me. As indeed is the supercharged four-pot in the Elise.

I don't think Alfa picked those units because they thought they were the best engine and gearbox to use in the 4C though, I think they picked them because they are the best demonstration of Alfa's current technology and technical direction; and from that point of view, it's hard to argue with the choice.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th January 16:04

[giblet]

Must admit, I'm smitten with the looks of the spider. Wonder what the odds are of finding one on lease for £600 or so on a 2 year deal.

Edit - slim to none. Regular 4C on a private lease seems to be £802 a month on 3+23 deal. Dangnabbit!

Edited by giblet on Tuesday 13th January 16:31

[chelme]

Europa1 said:

otolith said:

chelme said:

Ha! :-) Essentially, the vehicle gives the impression it was manufactured in some small shed. This is the problem with the brand IMO. Neither the style (which is 15 years old) nor the quality of the materials used (not to mention the lack of equipment) justifies £43-53k. Combine this with an engine from Toyota, well, you may get my gist. It just doesn't cut it for me. IMO Lotus needs an Esprit with its own homegrown/heavily modified engine, but hey, this is another discussion well trodden.

I think ultimately you pays yer money and takes yer choice. For a low volume manufacturer, a tried and tested engine from a mass market manufacturer makes a lot of sense. Even with Porsche volumes there is a history of chocolate engines, and TVR's excursion into engine manufacture was not entirely successful. I'd rather the money was spent elsewhere, really. The interior materials are functional if not pretty. It's not something that really bothers me, being ultimately very superficial, but it does seem to be something Lotus could win sales by changing. The construction materials I'm fine with - I'd rather have the 4C's fibreglass body on carbon tub construction than the Lotus's fibreglass on aluminium, and I'd rather either to a steel monocoque, but it wouldn't be a major factor in choosing.

...For a small manufacturer, the costs associated with any in-house produced or heavily bespoked engine are ruinous....

That's what some say, but then McLaren commenced their road car division with a 'bespoke' engine. They are doing OK...you think the number crunchers and the business brains within that company did not work this out?

The £400 bhp Evora rumored to debut at the Geneva motorshow this year might have the 'heavily bespoked' engine you say costs 'too much'. We shall see, but if this is true, and if the car is restyled to look less awkward from some angles, I think the Evora could be the alternative to the Esprit concept to pull the brand upwards...

[Claudia Skies]

chelme said:

The 400 bhp Evora rumored to debut at the Geneva motorshow this year might have the 'heavily bespoked' engine you say costs 'too much'. We shall see, but if this is true, and if the car is restyled to look less awkward from some angles, I think the Evora could be the alternative to the Esprit concept to pull the brand upwards...

You may well be right.

As regards Exige S the problem isn't the Toyota stuff at the back - it's the ancient, 25 year old cockpit/tub at the front.

[otolith]

kambites said:

I don't think Alfa picked those units because they thought they were the best engine and gearbox to use in the 4C though, I think they picked them because they are the best demonstration of Alfa's current technology and technical direction; and from that point of view, it's hard to argue with the choice.

Yes, I think they had previously tried the utterly irrelevant halo car with the 8C and got nowhere. I think the 4C was meant as a flag in the ground, particularly in the US, announcing what Alfa will be about going forwards.

[Europa1]

chelme said:

That's what some say, but then McLaren commenced their road car division with a 'bespoke' engine. They are doing OK...you think the number crunchers and the business brains within that company did not work this out?

The £400 bhp Evora rumored to debut at the Geneva motorshow this year might have the 'heavily bespoked' engine you say costs 'too much'. We shall see, but if this is true, and if the car is restyled to look less awkward from some angles, I think the Evora could be the alternative to the Esprit concept to pull the brand upwards...

McLaren Technology Group and Group Lotus inhabit rather different worlds financially so one suspects that for the number crunchers and the business brains within McLaren it was a very different set of considerations when they decided to go their own way on an engine, and they were targeting their products and brand at a different audience and price point. Lotus has already floated a more powerful (440bhp if I recall) restyled Evora but other than a demonstrator and one built for their then-CEO nothing seemed to come of it.

[otolith]

chelme said:

That's what some say, but then McLaren commenced their road car division with a 'bespoke' engine. They are doing OK...you think the number crunchers and the business brains within that company did not work this out?

McLaren are operating in a different market sector. Their volumes aren't so far away from Lotus's, but their unit prices are c. 200k-1000k+.

[chelme]

otolith said:

Yes, I think they had previously tried the utterly irrelevant halo car with the 8C and got nowhere. I think the 4C was meant as a flag in the ground, particularly in the US, announcing what Alfa will be about going forwards.

Got no where?? They sold every single one of them at a healthy profit.

[otolith]

chelme said:

otolith said:

Yes, I think they had previously tried the utterly irrelevant halo car with the 8C and got nowhere. I think the 4C was meant as a flag in the ground, particularly in the US, announcing what Alfa will be about going forwards.

Got no where?? They sold every single one of them at a healthy profit.

The important question is how many of their bread and butter cars it sold. "Look at our lovely V8 engined supercar which embodies all that Alfa is about - now, can I interest you in a diesel Giulietta?".

[daytona365]

soad said:

daytona365 said:

At a stroke Alfa have become serious contenders again after years of half hearted life in the doldrums. In other words I think it's great ( Which is rare for me !).

Yes, you tend to slag off most cars.

.....''Slag off''? I give an informed opinion on the dire aesthetics of most new cars yes, that's true.

[chelme]

Europa1 said:

chelme said:

That's what some say, but then McLaren commenced their road car division with a 'bespoke' engine. They are doing OK...you think the number crunchers and the business brains within that company did not work this out?

The £400 bhp Evora rumored to debut at the Geneva motorshow this year might have the 'heavily bespoked' engine you say costs 'too much'. We shall see, but if this is true, and if the car is restyled to look less awkward from some angles, I think the Evora could be the alternative to the Esprit concept to pull the brand upwards...

McLaren Technology Group and Group Lotus inhabit rather different worlds financially.

That's correct, because McLaren have the balls to take risks, whilst Lotus have not been enterprising enough to strike - instead churning out the same old concept with different stickers, (which has proven to be fruitless).

There are countless other brands that have failed using bog standard engines from other manufacturers and the only reason why Lotus remains on life support is because of its heritage. Whatever the merits of his approach to marketing the brand, Danny Bahar had some wisdom in attempting bringing the Esprit back with Zimmerman's engine, but alas that plug was pulled from underneath by DRB-HICOM. The settlement reached between them remains secret and therefore inconclusive as regards what money was spent where etc...

Anyway, what's happened has happened. I wish Lotus the best of luck, but right now as with many others, I am looking forward to a drive in the 4C.

[DeltonaS]

j_s14a said:

Perhaps they should have seized the opportunity to give the car a MUCH needed manual gearbox?

Much needed ?? to whom ?? Americans ?? which, after 2 century's of driving auto boxes, trying to be fashionable by wanting a manual ??

all chit chat.....

Ferrari doesn't even offer manuals anymore, why ?? becuase when they did up untill recently less than 10% wanted one.

[Europa1]

chelme said:

Europa1 said:

chelme said:

That's what some say, but then McLaren commenced their road car division with a 'bespoke' engine. They are doing OK...you think the number crunchers and the business brains within that company did not work this out?

The £400 bhp Evora rumored to debut at the Geneva motorshow this year might have the 'heavily bespoked' engine you say costs 'too much'. We shall see, but if this is true, and if the car is restyled to look less awkward from some angles, I think the Evora could be the alternative to the Esprit concept to pull the brand upwards...

McLaren Technology Group and Group Lotus inhabit rather different worlds financially.

That's correct, because McLaren have the balls to take risks, whilst Lotus have not been enterprising enough to strike - instead churning out the same old concept with different stickers, (which has proven to be fruitless).

There are countless other brands that have failed using bog standard engines from other manufacturers and the only reason why Lotus remains on life support is because of its heritage. Whatever the merits of his approach to marketing the brand, Danny Bahar had some wisdom in attempting bringing the Esprit back with Zimmerman's engine, but alas that plug was pulled from underneath by DRB-HICOM. The settlement reached between them remains secret and therefore inconclusive as regards what money was spent where etc...

Anyway, what's happened has happened. I wish Lotus the best of luck, but right now as with many others, I am looking forward to a drive in the 4C.

Really? You think the "business brains and the number crunchers" at McLaren, led by Ron Dennis, had bigger balls to take risks than Lotus led by Colin Chapman? That's a bold claim, and one that I would suggest completely contradicts the relative financial positions of the 2 companies. McLaren has taken very solid, business/number-led decisions. Historically, a Lotus built engine is the exception, rather than the rule, and Colin Chapman was intuitive rather than a number cruncher.

I do agree that Dany Bahar's vision was bold; I am not sure I would go so far as "wisdom" as I thought the styling of many of the Paris concept cars was derivative and uninspiring.

I would be intrigued to try a drive in a 4C; however, given most of the UK road tests to date, I am not sure I would look forward to it necessarily.

Edited to add: for the avoidance of doubt, whilst I find them hard to love, I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for McLaren and everything it has achieved.

Edited by Europa1 on Tuesday 13th January 20:49

[redroadster]

just love the look of this car and the fact it has a carbon fibre tub, at least you can climb in and out of it easy unlike the lotus its compared with, I would rather have this than most of the overweight over sized supercars,i know the alfa is wide but its more usuable and rare I,d be proud to own one.

[noble12345]

I much prefer the SE standard hard top 4C without all the tacky LE add on bits/holes. Flat red with red calipers/alu wheels, sports exhaust, half leather, red stitching, perfect.

I seem to remember the Abarth 500 having similar issues on uk roads, but they revised the shocks/springs? i think and made it much better.

300bhp v6 Maserati version will be awesome.

[Carl_Docklands]

GTEYE said:

All very nice, but what we really need is something to put Alfa properly back on the map.

The 8C could be that car if they worked out how to drop the price and market it correctly.

It remains one of the most beautiful cars I have ever seen.

[Snoggledog]

otolith said:

chelme said:

Despite wanting to like Lotus, I could not bring myself to buy one in the end because, well, its a kit car-manufactured.

Which kit cars does it manufacture?

Technically every car ever made is a kit car. (Sorry. Pedant)

[Reardy Mister]

Blu3R said:

saaby93 said:

Does it do anything better than an elise?

Turn heads. And that's why they'll sell more than Lotus do.

O RLY?