RE: TVR's rebirth - can it work? PH Blog
Discussion
I think they are snookered. They are trying to aim at the cheap end of the market as a British Corvette/Viper but GM and Dodge make their money selling pick ups. Other sports car they are competing against have money coming in from selling regular cars or SUV's.
The smaller car makers such as Caterham, Ariel, Morgan and BAC are just toys for the weekend that don't have any wet weather protection as they will be a 2nd/3rd bugs in the teeth experience.
Sadly I see TVR aiming at the same market as Lotus. They don't want to go into the Bentley/Aston price range because of their Middle class glass ceiling which would cover the costs of this low volume and they don't have an income coming in to cover the bills.
The smaller car makers such as Caterham, Ariel, Morgan and BAC are just toys for the weekend that don't have any wet weather protection as they will be a 2nd/3rd bugs in the teeth experience.
Sadly I see TVR aiming at the same market as Lotus. They don't want to go into the Bentley/Aston price range because of their Middle class glass ceiling which would cover the costs of this low volume and they don't have an income coming in to cover the bills.
allroad one said:
Either way, it's a bloody 90's TVR, no one in their right mind is gonna pay more than £27000 for a new one, no matter how appealing it is. I hope this is some sort of joke?
Str8six have just sold their 2003 Cerbera for a fair bit more than £27K. (I Think it was up for £32K).You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Edited by scorcher on Monday 9th May 09:34
I think it will flip tbh, who does a car that will more than likely have a below standard finish and fit and most likely still made from bits of old boat really appeal to?
There's no shortage of big v8 sports cars, even more now than when TVR where last around, if it ever comes to light it will never be a great success I don't think, plus it must be expensive to pay the massive r&d costs plus the new factory
Shame really as Morgan seem to be doing rather well
There's no shortage of big v8 sports cars, even more now than when TVR where last around, if it ever comes to light it will never be a great success I don't think, plus it must be expensive to pay the massive r&d costs plus the new factory
Shame really as Morgan seem to be doing rather well
sisu said:
I think they are snookered. They are trying to aim at the cheap end of the market as a British Corvette/Viper but GM and Dodge make their money selling pick ups. Other sports car they are competing against have money coming in from selling regular cars or SUV's.
The smaller car makers such as Caterham, Ariel, Morgan and BAC are just toys for the weekend that don't have any wet weather protection as they will be a 2nd/3rd bugs in the teeth experience.
Sadly I see TVR aiming at the same market as Lotus. They don't want to go into the Bentley/Aston price range because of their Middle class glass ceiling which would cover the costs of this low volume and they don't have an income coming in to cover the bills.
I think you are spot on. The advantage they should have though is not being laden with the enormous cost of a factory set up far bigger and more costly than is justified for the volume of cars sold. I believe that almost all the economics pretty much rests on Murray's iStream process and the land and labour savings it offers while maintaining the consistency and speed of a full sized production line. Without that I would hazard that the whole concept of building a TVR for the modern world would be a total non starter. The smaller car makers such as Caterham, Ariel, Morgan and BAC are just toys for the weekend that don't have any wet weather protection as they will be a 2nd/3rd bugs in the teeth experience.
Sadly I see TVR aiming at the same market as Lotus. They don't want to go into the Bentley/Aston price range because of their Middle class glass ceiling which would cover the costs of this low volume and they don't have an income coming in to cover the bills.
If they succeed in bringing a car to market it will definitely be niche. But the real importance for me is that if they succeed then they will have shown the way for small manufacturers to start building products that can price compete against the mass produced, generic market.
Anyone who loves cars cannot help but have noticed that today we are just swamped with very generic 'sports' cars from a tiny number of global manufacturers who build a product to fit as many people as possible on the planet. Outside of the track day market and with a tiny number of exceptions, there is no true choice because the modern process of building road cars has seen the global manufacturers lock out the small company.
If this new means of building low volume road cars works for TVRs then it is possibly one of the most important things to have happened in the last decade as car manufacturing has become more and more dull and generic. It could herald the return of individuality, creativity, intelligence and most importantly, passion to the new car market.
That's why everyone who likes cars should be backing TVR. It isn't important whether you like TVR or not. It's success will be what saves us from the era of the s
ttest, identikit, made for all, generic road car era dominated by essentially just a few seriously boring global corporates. If they can prove that manufacturing processes, such as this, can allow a company to be locally complaint, price competitive and ultimately profitable on just a few hundred units per annum then this will transpire to be the most important thing to have happened in the last decade to combat the banality of global uniformity and domination.
That is why anyone who genuinely likes cars should be wanting this project to succeed.
Byker28i said:
f type is 2042 mm
tvr cerbera is 1865 mm
MX-5 is 1678mm - found a car for you
~185cm (doing a mincing footstep walk next to the car! ) it 'looks' (deceptively) wider than an f type, but mirrors don't stick out as much - not sure if mirrors will stay in same position.tvr cerbera is 1865 mm
MX-5 is 1678mm - found a car for you
car clinic customer preview should be fun. hope on not on holiday
Edited by BJWoods on Monday 9th May 10:18
Edited by BJWoods on Monday 9th May 10:21
Byker28i said:
Nickbrapp said:
I think it will flip tbh, who does a car that will more than likely have a below standard finish and fit and most likely still made from bits of old boat really appeal to?
Sorry - where have you heard that from - or is this your prejudged, expert opinion?Ozzie Osmond said:
DonkeyApple said:
If they succeed in bringing a car to market it will definitely be niche.
The hand built Noble is niche - it costs more than £200k and I've never seen one on the road. Yes, that's very niche.What price this niche TVR?
Not sure why it all has to be so hush hush ?
I definitely think there is a market in that space of 70/80 grand, i.e. a bit more than Top End Boxsters and cheaper than 911's
F type is nice but a bit Cravat and Gin, heavy and a bit mainstream
A Boxster now comes with a 4 cyl, so for not much more a blood and Thunder proper V8, plus, nobody will ask if its you wife's.
Audis, well, not a competitor at that price point is there ?
BMW, er, do they still make the Z4 ? M3/4 good but a bit, M2 is it, great cars but its a special version of a very common car.
Merc, top end SLK, nice but a bit feminine again
Seven type things and smaller Lotuses, wonderful but not really a car for more than the odd blast.
Suppose the Evora is the main competitor but, though I am sure its a great car, just does nothing for me
If it can be free of the traditional foibles and owners dont have to make excuses for it, it really does have a place, all the german stuff is a bit chain store, where this is more independent and real, in an increasingly homogenised world, where people are perhaps getting a bit over familiar with the usual suspects, it surely has a place.
I definitely think there is a market in that space of 70/80 grand, i.e. a bit more than Top End Boxsters and cheaper than 911's
F type is nice but a bit Cravat and Gin, heavy and a bit mainstream
A Boxster now comes with a 4 cyl, so for not much more a blood and Thunder proper V8, plus, nobody will ask if its you wife's.
Audis, well, not a competitor at that price point is there ?
BMW, er, do they still make the Z4 ? M3/4 good but a bit, M2 is it, great cars but its a special version of a very common car.
Merc, top end SLK, nice but a bit feminine again
Seven type things and smaller Lotuses, wonderful but not really a car for more than the odd blast.
Suppose the Evora is the main competitor but, though I am sure its a great car, just does nothing for me
If it can be free of the traditional foibles and owners dont have to make excuses for it, it really does have a place, all the german stuff is a bit chain store, where this is more independent and real, in an increasingly homogenised world, where people are perhaps getting a bit over familiar with the usual suspects, it surely has a place.
I've just had an idea - why don't I wait until I actually know something about the car before I pass judgement 
Am I interested in the final product? - yes.
Have I placed a deposit? - no.
Would I place a deposit? - possibly, once I know more about it.
Plenty of other V8 sports cars already available? There aren't many with the option of manual transmission.
Am I interested in the final product? - yes.
Have I placed a deposit? - no.
Would I place a deposit? - possibly, once I know more about it.
Plenty of other V8 sports cars already available? There aren't many with the option of manual transmission.
Nickbrapp said:
Byker28i said:
Nickbrapp said:
I think it will flip tbh, who does a car that will more than likely have a below standard finish and fit and most likely still made from bits of old boat really appeal to?
Sorry - where have you heard that from - or is this your prejudged, expert opinion?DonkeyApple said:
It's cost to build that is the only important factor. Pretty sure it's not going to be a projection of success for middle and back office workers though. It'll be too expensive.
Personally I agree, and think it might be a problem. Chim was the big seller and it was selling to exactly those people. Wealthy customers were shopping elsewhere and it's not obvious to me why they would move down market. I think it's fair to say that previous "expensive" TVRs were disastrous, both for customers and for the company.However - build it, and they will come! If it's the right product at the right price it should do well.
J4CKO said:
Not sure why it all has to be so hush hush ?
Its still in development, so they may need to change things as they go along. The last thing they want is to release something, then have to change it due to xyz reason and the public to go crazy - take for example the XJ220. I suspect another reason for keeping it hidden now is to get the reaction from deposit holders and modify the looks depending on that feedback. Thus reducing the "it doesn't look like the concept car" comments they would get if they changed it. However as a small company they want to keep some attention on themselves so they drip feed things like the covered car to keep their name in the press and hopefully to encourage more deposits/ investors.Nickbrapp said:
more than likely have a below standard finish and fit and most likely still made from bits of old boat
Hmm, the fit and finish on mine is rather good, despite it being hand built in a shed (and probably finished off on a Friday afternoon)... I also know every bit of the car, and have yet to recognise anything that resembles 'bits of old boat'Opinions based on pub talk eh, don't you just love it
Ozzie Osmond said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's cost to build that is the only important factor. Pretty sure it's not going to be a projection of success for middle and back office workers though. It'll be too expensive.
Personally I agree, and think it might be a problem. Chim was the big seller and it was selling to exactly those people. Wealthy customers were shopping elsewhere and it's not obvious to me why they would move down market. I think it's fair to say that previous "expensive" TVRs were disastrous, both for customers and for the company.However - build it, and they will come! If it's the right product at the right price it should do well.
If this supposed 'new' means of manufacture doesn't solve the cost hurdle then it's a complete non starter. They have to be able to sell at a sensible price and still have a nice fat profit margin. But while they talk about carbon fibre and Cosworth engines, they have let slip that entry models will use cheaper composites and stock Ford engines. I suspect they plan to show images of a carbon fibre, dramatic, Le Mans racing behemoth while selling mostly non carbon fibre, non Cosworth, much plainer road cars for the most part.
Looking back at the final days of TVR, it wasn't their more expensive cars that killed them, it was their catastrophic inability to commercially react to the lower volumes that are caused by higher prices (ie Wheeler had stripped the company of cash and was reliant on a massive and cheap labour pool instead of investing in streamlining with technology) and combine a business with no foundations being hit by their farcical, self made engine woes then that was that. But they sold a decent number of £60k Sagarises in their final two years of existence and back in 2001 there were even more of us who put down deposits for the T440 and Typhon Le Mans cars and they were £85k before options 15 years ago.
Personally, if this iStream manufacturing process is any good I think they've got the right engine and they'll find enough buyers each year around the £70-£100k mark but only if it looks good. When you look at most comebacks you know instantly that they are going to fail regardless of anything else because they've made something that not even a mother could love. This car needs to look dramatic enough to be seen as a TVR but bland enough for owners to not be too self conscious pottering about in it. I think that is going to be the hardest trick to pull off.
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