Would you still buy a diesel now?
Discussion
im looking to buy a nearly new, big saloon car (E-Class size) in December. The petrol options are pretty thin on the ground excluding AMG/M specs which are out of my price range. Fuel economy isn't a major factor and I plan to keep it indefinitely so a petrol would be nice however due to the scarcity its going to be interesting to see what the price premium is. If its in the couple of K ball park a petrol will be a no-brainer for me, just for the insurance of being able to punt it on further down the line if I need to. If its more than a couple of K I will have to have a careful think about it. Once the hysteria starts to die down I have a feeling that Euro6 diesels aren't going to be massively attacked for quite a while yet.
I think part of the problem at the moment it is almost "fashionable" to bash diesel. What many people fail to really understand is that manufacturers desire in a number of cases has pushed them to utilise somewhat similar concepts of diesel in petrol. I think the next big "issue" that is still on the "outer fringes" is that many modern, highly fuel efficient petrols are not really that much "cleaner" than diesels. Furthermore, added to this is the delay that has occurred between the changes to utilising such technology in petrols and the filters being added to them.
The simple fact of the matter is you either choose CO2 or NOx really. Particulates do form some of that equation, but so many modern petrols emit them as well and that is the bit that is being missed in a number of articles and viewpoints in the wider motoring world.
The simple fact of the matter is you either choose CO2 or NOx really. Particulates do form some of that equation, but so many modern petrols emit them as well and that is the bit that is being missed in a number of articles and viewpoints in the wider motoring world.
swisstoni said:
I never wanted diesel in the first place. It was only taxation that made them popular. To the extent that some vehicles just weren't available in petrol for most if not all the range.
Yupp. Never owned a diesel myself, due to my short, city commute and generally just not wanting one. However, i can't blame those that did, regardless. The Government essentially incentivised them with low tax costs.They're now whole-heatedly regretting that decision and are desperately trying to rid them of their use on our roads completely.
Oh the irony...
JRdrums said:
Sorry to boost an old thread but doing 30k miles a year and occasionally needing to park in city centres is a diesel really not worth it now ?
From the mileage perspective - yes, absolutely. I'd a 2012 Golf 1.6TDI and doing those miles and i was achieving 62mpg brim to brim on average. You're still going to see a close to 50% increase in economy compared to an "equivalent" petrol variant, in most cases.From the depreciation perspective - i personally dont see demand dropping to the point where you cant sell it. And realistically 30K miles per year its going to make more sense to buy it and run it until it dies anyway.
The increase in city charges depend on the local council and how soon they may introduce something. It wouldnt be a deal breaker for me though
culpz said:
swisstoni said:
I never wanted diesel in the first place. It was only taxation that made them popular. To the extent that some vehicles just weren't available in petrol for most if not all the range.
Yupp. Never owned a diesel myself, due to my short, city commute and generally just not wanting one. However, i can't blame those that did, regardless. The Government essentially incentivised them with low tax costs.They're now whole-heatedly regretting that decision and are desperately trying to rid them of their use on our roads completely.
Oh the irony...
Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
daemon said:
culpz said:
swisstoni said:
I never wanted diesel in the first place. It was only taxation that made them popular. To the extent that some vehicles just weren't available in petrol for most if not all the range.
Yupp. Never owned a diesel myself, due to my short, city commute and generally just not wanting one. However, i can't blame those that did, regardless. The Government essentially incentivised them with low tax costs.They're now whole-heatedly regretting that decision and are desperately trying to rid them of their use on our roads completely.
Oh the irony...
Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
Plus everyone just flat out lied about the levels of emissions coming ouf of them i.e VW having like 50 times the amount coming out than claimed due to cheat devices.
p1stonhead said:
Isnt it more that they have realised they are far far worse for people's health than first thought?
Plus everyone just flat out lied about the levels of emissions coming ouf of them i.e VW having like 50 times the amount coming out than claimed due to cheat devices.
Yes - more information / evidence has become available after the government started down its particular taxation route.Plus everyone just flat out lied about the levels of emissions coming ouf of them i.e VW having like 50 times the amount coming out than claimed due to cheat devices.
And indeed, if you incentivise around emissions, you run the risk of people fiddling the results.
I sold my Passat TDI last month, and i'd say although i've been a diesel advocate for decades it will have been my last diesel. Reliability of them has been destroyed with DPFs, electronic EGR valves, DMFs, high pressure turbos, etc, etc to the point whereby its just too big a risk owning one, relative to hitting large bills. Thats in my experience - i am sure many people run current diesels with no issues but i havent been that lucky....
If i was doing big miles again i'd go down the petrol hybrid route.
p1stonhead said:
Isnt it more that they have realised they are far far worse for people's health than first thought?
Plus everyone just flat out lied about the levels of emissions coming ouf of them i.e VW having like 50 times the amount coming out than claimed due to cheat devices.
Actually some of the evidence was already known prior to them being pushed. The issue was the focus on CO2 and clearly that was overriding. At the time whilst there was some knowledge surrounding NOx and more so particulates it was not to the level we know today for example.Plus everyone just flat out lied about the levels of emissions coming ouf of them i.e VW having like 50 times the amount coming out than claimed due to cheat devices.
In regards to issues regarding complexity of the modern diesel, many petrol engines have similar technologies to diesel ones and therefore can in some way suffer the same issues.
I think one of the larger issues recently has been EGR's, they are pushed much harder than ever before to reduce the levels of emissions, some of which is reflected in the setup of them instead of being vacuum controlled being directly linked to the ECU electronically. Additionally, regarding DPF's, the reality is a modern petrol is also going to need a filter in this case a "GPF". VW, Mercedes and BMW I know at least either have or are going to fit them in newer models.
daemon said:
Who is? The government? Only from a loss of tax revenue perspective, as diesels generate less fuel tax revenue.
Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
I meant more in terms of image, by making themselves look daft, as apposed to losing out revenue wise.Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
I'm aware that they might not have been aware of the health implications of diesels at the time and the focus was on CO2 levels and not NOx. It still strikes me as pretty poor to not spend a bit more money into research and uncover exactly how diesels can effect us and not just the atmosphere.
I bought a shed diesel 6 months ago as I was doing 3000 miles a month, at that sort of mileage it is a no brainer. Euro 4 so no DPF to worry about, not that I would have been too worried with a 100 mile a day commute,
But, it is a noisy and agricultural engine and when I drive it now there is a dilema between wanting to enjoy driving and getting 65 MPG. However, my mileage is now well under 1000 miles a month so it is pretty pointless.
Most people who bought diesels "due to the economy" were not doing the mileage to justify it and just ended up with clogged DPFs and expensive engine issues. I think diesels only work for people doing high mileage or driving a heavy car such as a 4X4 or S class/A8/5 Series etc.
Unless my mileage goes back to crazy levels my next car will definitely be a petrol. Nothing to do with killing the polar bears it is just I don't like how rough diesel engines are.
But, it is a noisy and agricultural engine and when I drive it now there is a dilema between wanting to enjoy driving and getting 65 MPG. However, my mileage is now well under 1000 miles a month so it is pretty pointless.
Most people who bought diesels "due to the economy" were not doing the mileage to justify it and just ended up with clogged DPFs and expensive engine issues. I think diesels only work for people doing high mileage or driving a heavy car such as a 4X4 or S class/A8/5 Series etc.
Unless my mileage goes back to crazy levels my next car will definitely be a petrol. Nothing to do with killing the polar bears it is just I don't like how rough diesel engines are.
culpz said:
daemon said:
Who is? The government? Only from a loss of tax revenue perspective, as diesels generate less fuel tax revenue.
Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
I meant more in terms of image, by making themselves look daft, as apposed to losing out revenue wise.Theres no "regret" from the government. Noone will ever be held accountable for the choices they made at the time and it was seemingly based on the evidence available at the time.
They'll use "getting rid of them" off our roads as a way to add extra tax on to people in some way - it will be for our own good of course, but thats really what they'll be interested in.
I'm aware that they might not have been aware of the health implications of diesels at the time and the focus was on CO2 levels and not NOx. It still strikes me as pretty poor to not spend a bit more money into research and uncover exactly how diesels can effect us and not just the atmosphere.
Joey Deacon said:
I think diesels only work for people doing high mileage or driving a heavy car such as a 4X4 or S class/A8/5 Series etc.
Indeed. Thats all they EVER should have been bought for. Unfortunately people became obsessed with the low tax rate on them, the better "economy" and the perceived better residuals come resale timeDiesel ban approved for German cities to cut pollution
German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
Ninja59 said:
In regards to issues regarding complexity of the modern diesel, many petrol engines have similar technologies to diesel ones and therefore can in some way suffer the same issues.
Not really comparable, while the technology is similar they are less reliable when used in a diesel. GPF/DPF - Petrol GPF "regens" on a closed throttle and there is not a lot of soot. Diesel DPF needs a complicated cycle and has far more soot.
DMF - Due to the way petrol cars make their power DMF failure is while not impossible unlikely. Most will outlast the vehicle.
Turbos - Diesels have far more soot in the exhaust and have a habit of clogging up turbos
GDI - Far lower pressure than diesel.
EGR - Diesels have far more soot in the exhaust and have a habit of clogging up EGR
Of course that's not to say various makes aren't going to have terrible or good versions of each but with the same technology I'd I expect a petrol car to be more reliable (for those technologies, obviously petrol cars have *other* things to go wrong).
Andy-SP2 said:
Diesel ban approved for German cities to cut pollution
German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
My car will soon be worth 4 pence then German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
May as well keep it until it dies.Andy-SP2 said:
Diesel ban approved for German cities to cut pollution
German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
Apologies if I missed it but the article doesn't seem to make clear what an "older" diesel is defined as, or when the legislation will take effect. If its immediate and only Euro6 is exempt, then the impact will be huge. If it is implemented further down the line and perhaps Euro5 is also exempted, it would be materially lower in terms of impact on the vehicle population. A lot of the diesel fleet die or at the end of their useful lives at a much younger age due to duty cycles. German cities will be allowed to ban older diesel vehicles from some areas following a landmark court ruling.
The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig said the cities of Stuttgart and Duesseldorf could legally ban more older, more polluting diesel cars from zones worst affected by pollution.
The government had opposed the bans, which set a precedent for the country, arguing they would cause disruption.
Analysts said the decision could lead to similar action across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43211946
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