RE: Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo vs Audi S4 Avant

[ajmcampbell]

Lovely though the Alpina is, it's a hard sell when you can get a standard 335d for £33k these days...

[Olivera]

JMF894 said:

Or alternatively buy yourself a really nice Dame Edna Saab 9-5 aero estate for 4k, stage 3 it for another 2k, sort the chassis including a quaife lsd,billies, poly etc for another 3-4k and you'll have a 300bhp dog trolley for 10k at the very most. Far less if you get a cheaper one and do the work yourself.

It will have around a 150/200kgs weight advantage over these two and you'll have 40k to go get something proper........................

Just my opinion of course, they are both lovely motors and given the need I'd take the D3.

Jimbo

Can we please stop the suggestions of tuned Saabs when discussing completely different cars? Anyways, even with 3-4k chucked at the Saab chassis it will remain a miserable old turd to drive in comparison to these. Piss poor handling, torque steer and scuttle shake ahoy!

Oh and I'll take the Alpina.

[tjlees]

ajmcampbell said:

Lovely though the Alpina is, it's a hard sell when you can get a standard 335d for £33k these days...

Yep - even less if you opt for non-LCI one with individual leather for the quality feel.

Get a 389bhp tune for £500, dual exhaust for £300 and ACS suspension for around £600 and maybe some extra suspension tuning if you are that fussy ... and you end up with a real Q car.



(but I really do like the Alpina)

[Burnham]

Ive had an S4, and currently got an S3...but its the D3 every day of the week for me. Touring with LSD of course. Comparing it to a chipped 335 entirely misses the point.

[ZX10R NIN]

Having driven both back to back they're not the same car even with the springs it doesn't get close to the Alpina's ride you really need to drive one because it's more than a parts bin car, it's the way it all ties together, The better cabin steering feel the way it rides bumps potholes etc all add up to an experience which my F80 M3 couldn't (unless I was fully on it) which was why the 335d Xdrive test drive lasted 2 miles, after driving the Alpina (smart salesman) it didn't even get close the fact it was loaded & a 19% discount was offered I didn't hesitate & bought the D3.

Yes I could have added a Map bigger intercooler ACS Springs with the difference in price but it wouldn't have rode as well (it would be better than standard) & it would have been seen as a modded car whereas the D3 is an Alpina & for me the fact it was the best car swung it for me, but I can understand that not having one to test drive is a problem at which point 22% off would sway most people to a 340i/335d.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Monday 8th May 22:32

[PunterCam]

Both are alright, and only cost 50 grand or so?? I love an average car me. Sign me up. As long as it's mostly mediocre I'm game.

"All things to all people" is usually just dull and ste.

[IJB1959]

Burnham said:

Ive had an S4, and currently got an S3...but its the D3 every day of the week for me. Touring with LSD of course. Comparing it to a chipped 335 entirely misses the point.

That's real 'chalk & cheese' with what you have and what you'd want then!

[Burnham]

IJB1959 said:

Burnham said:

Ive had an S4, and currently got an S3...but its the D3 every day of the week for me. Touring with LSD of course. Comparing it to a chipped 335 entirely misses the point.

That's real 'chalk & cheese' with what you have and what you'd want then!

Well, luckily I have the chalk and the cheese The S3 is for doing the shopping in, which is does perfectly adequately. The D3 is for when I want to spoil myself

[Jesus]

I don't get the 'better' cabin thing.

Standard 3 series seats, same dash, same steering wheel albeit with a bit of coloured stitching, a couple of blue clocks and an overdose of Alpina badges?
What's better about it?

Unless you chuck £3-4K worth of Lavalina at it, it's the same!
At least an M3 gets at the very least proper sports seats.

I agree on the ride quality though - standard BMW can't come close to it.
(And just to throw it in there, the Alfa Giulia QV is even better still)

Edited by Jesus on Monday 8th May 23:47

[Onehp]

moffat said:

BMW 340i Touring with the new B58 engine and the M Performance Power and Sound Kit (MPPSK) for an additional £1800. It gives 360bhp and an epic switchable exhaust and is fully covered by the warranty.

An easy choice given 22% discounts and 2.9% APR.

I've just ordered a new 440 with the MPPSK.

The driveline is great and sound good too. But the Alpinas are a better steer. The mentioned C43 AMG could actually better than the 340, haven't driven but they sound even better still, heavy 4wd though. I'm hoping that Mercedes bring their new straight six and rwd in a similar package one day, or make these cars lose another 10% of weight. That or something electric for the next car.

Edited by Onehp on Tuesday 9th May 07:36

[Onehp]

marcg said:

And those are good steering cars? I've driven the focus and Leon as mid spec hire cars and found them horribly over light on steering. Like cars with a city mode. The focus in particular didn't seem to know which way was straight. Are the fast versions fitted with different steering?

Yes, calibrated differently (Golf and Leon let you choose between two) and quicker, also the suspensions are pretty well sorted in a sportier manner. Still no massive amounts of feel or weight, but good enough to be enjoyable on roads that actually challenge the cars a bit. If anything, even these bread and butter models are almost too refined which is also the problem for the cars and competitors in the main article, they are all based on luxury car platforms... And the Alpina does the best in combining luxury and driving it seems. Also the MQB platform is at least light (my Leon ST is 1410kg kerb with 590l boot), has a massive aftermarket (warranty friendly parts for 3k made a great difference) and you only pay mainstrean consumer prices because of huge part sharing. Yet the platform is good enough to come in second place on last years Evo car of the year...

Edited by Onehp on Tuesday 9th May 07:34

[W124]

Onehp said:

marcg said:

And those are good steering cars? I've driven the focus and Leon as mid spec hire cars and found them horribly over light on steering. Like cars with a city mode. The focus in particular didn't seem to know which way was straight. Are the fast versions fitted with different steering?

Yes, calibrated differently (Golf and Leon let you choose between two) and quicker, also the suspensions are pretty well sorted in a sportier manner. Still no massive amounts of feel or weight, but good enough to be enjoyable on roads that actually challenge the cars a bit. If anything, even these bread and butter models are almost too refined which is also the problem for the cars and competitors in the main article, they are all based on luxury car platforms... And the Alpina does the best in combining luxury and driving it seems. Also the MQB platform is at least light (my Leon ST is 1410kg kerb with 590l boot), has a massive aftermarket (warranty friendly parts for 3k made a great difference) and you only pay mainstrean consumer prices because of huge part sharing. Yet the platform is good enough to come in second place on last years Evo car of the year...

Edited by Onehp on Tuesday 9th May 07:34

Focus ST Estate is a really good steer, if you ask me. You can't tow with it though. Pretty cheap nearly new as well.

[Matt Bird]

Zad said:

Having driven / been driven in a range of current generation diesels recently (although admittedly more in the "normal" car range, not this exalted market segment), I have to say that I have been disappointed. Yes, they have come a long way and have their strengths, but they always leave me feeling frustrated. Whether it be the noise, smell of the diesel that always seems to get everywhere or the nature of the power delivery, they inevitably impress me with the low down torque and ease of trundling between the traffic lights, and then when I put my foot down it just tends to underwhelm.

"Not ... terrible value at £58,000 either"

Seriously? I know I'm not in a great paying field of work, and am in The North, but that is a LOT of money for a choice between two cars that seem to be "okay". It also buys quite a few flights between wherever your home is and the mythical destination in Europe that needs a dramatic through the night drive to get to. And when you get there, money left over for coke and hookers.

I suspect the bottom line will be what the Benefit in Kind and other tax is, not how they drive etc.

Don't get me wrong, £58K is a lot of money. And I know it's a 3 Series. Certainly my spec wouldn't have that much on it. But it feels an expensive car, in terms of the materials and the way it drives. There are of course plenty of alternatives new and used, petrol and diesel, but that was the conclusion I came to over our time with it.

[JMF894]

Olivera said:

Can we please stop the suggestions of tuned Saabs when discussing completely different cars? Anyways, even with 3-4k chucked at the Saab chassis it will remain a miserable old turd to drive in comparison to these. Piss poor handling, torque steer and scuttle shake ahoy!

Oh and I'll take the Alpina.

Each to their own but you are wrong if you think they are turds. Obviously never going to be as good but.........I have one, albeit the saloon, already worked on and it cost me less than 6k with 61k on the clock. It'll do me for fun, pisses people off in their financed uber saloons and I can work on it myself.

Cost so little I just ordered a 40k beemer for the girlfriend. So yes, I do at least practice what I preach.

Peace.

[culpz]

Blue62 said:

If you watch the other D3 video by Sutcliffe you will have a better idea of what I'm talking about. I personally enjoy his insight and for the record he doesn't state that the D3 is a much better car than the M3, he simply states a preference for the D3 but adds that he would understand why someone would pick the M3.

The point about Alpina's lies in the chassis, brakes and steering and while they usually out punch their BMW counterparts in the power stakes, that's only a small part of the story. I am currently in an RS4 B8 which is coming up to 3 years old and ready for change, I would genuinely rather have a D3 as my daily but the Alpina finance costs are silly and i'm not in the mood to pay cash at the moment. I have driven the S5 saloon and the S4 as my local dealer is keen to keep me in an Audi but I'm afraid that I found them both to be pretty anodyne and unremarkable save for the lovely interior and tech. I may bite the Alpina bullet but my head says no just now!

Fair enough. I will give it a watch. To be honest, it was quite a while ago that i did watch that review. I still don't get all the hate for the new M3/M4 and that video kind of did my nut in. I struggle to see how a diesel can be better than BMW's halo M car, personal preference or not. It appears to be a commonly-shared opinion as well.

Funny that you should mention the B8 RS4 actually as that leads on to my next point. Again, it's another halo car from a German manufacturer that has not been well-received in an attempt to give people what they want. It sticks a middle-finger up to smaller-displacement, forced-induction engines and gives us a lovely, high-revving, sonorous V8 again, yet it gets hideously slated for doing so.
BMW now gets backlash for doing it the other way round and providing much more usable power in the F80 compared to the top-end frantic E92, which was often criticised.

Obviously, i concede that what people want from a fast Audi compared to a fast BMW are two very different experiences. However, I can really sympathise with some of these manufacturers as they really can win in many scenarios with modern cars.

[Onehp]

Hard to please all, the dynamic expectations for largely imaginary epic driving vs. real world buying public daily driving demands (easy and quick)....

[culpz]

W124 said:

Sure. It was fast (though a bit tight as it was brand new) though in every other way it was, I thought, very poor. The steering was inert to a crazy degree - absolutely nothing through the wheel at all. Nothing, no feedback whatsoever. The ride was crashy even in comfort mode. The exhaust stupidly farty even out of sport mode. The LCD scree is a gimmick that loses it's shine after mere hours. I don't like A4's as a rule and, generally, modern Audi's at all. I drive an awful lot of them on a regular basis so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. The best Audi's are the cheapest versions of any particular model. With the least options. A basic A4 with the 1.4 turbo petrol, small wheels and a manual box is actually quite nice. It is what it is. But that chassis architecture cannot support a car that costs 55k. It's just a long wheelbase Golf with a big engine and, unsurprisingly, that's what it feels like.

People do tend to have a preference as towards their pick of the German offerings. I'm quite a fan of VAG cars so Audi is probably the one i like the most. For me, they are much more intuitive and i generally like their controls and interiors. They do feel like a premium car to me, inside and out. I will admit that they are quite a boring and clinical drive though. I do think that most German brands will have a whiff of the same about them regardless, some more than others.

I'm not sure i agree about the comment on the basic and cheaper models being the better steer. The new A4 is in no way a bad car but that 1.4 engine really struggles within the heavy saloon body, despite it being on the new platform. It's pretty good on fuel, or so the range says, but i'm still filling it up the same amount as i did with the previous Scirocco 122 (bhp). I did recently do a trip from Manchester to Oban and back with lots of driving in between, which actually did me very well, but for everything else it's just not as good as it should be. I can't seem to average more than 32 MPG and i'm sure my 'Rocco managed a few more than that.

The engine itself suffers the worse turbo-lag i've ever experienced. It's borderline dangerous at times. You don't get much low down because of the lag, it's not exactly pulling like a train in the mid-range and there's not much up top either. It's a really strange power band and you just never feel like you're in the right gear. It's a shame as the manual is actually really nice to use. It would be much improved had Audi offered the S-Tronic or even the new ZF auto but it was never rolled out as an option. As much as i don't want to say/admit this, it really suits a decent diesel engine or at least a powerful petrol variant. I know they did a 2.0 TFSI option but the S4 just seems like the perfect sweet-spot.

[foggy1974]

So, are diesels still a good idea, with all the negativity and talk of taxes and scrappage on older ones??
Hopefully they are but even so I'm not sure id tip that amount of dough into one at the moment.

That aside I'd like the D3, I prefer the drive of BMWs in general and recently the looks as well - The latest Audi's seem to look less desirable (Dull) of late to me. Alpina's are just so classy and special.

[Blue62]

I'm not sure the S4 is the sweetspot, the one I drove lacked steering feel and the ride never seemed to settle in any mode, in some respects I have a similar issue with the RS but I'm prepared to compromise ride quality because it's seemingly part of the deal nowadays.

I owned the previous RS4 (B7) a few years ago and it was a far better compromise and much more enjoyable to drive, the steering in particular was beautifully weighted and inspired confidence the minute you set off. I get the sense that some manufacturers expect technology to provide the solution and give us so many settings that we blame ourselves for not finding the right balance, in my view Alpina engineers (and come to that Porsche) know how to set a car up to give us the best of both and it's to their credit. That effort, time and expertise is what you are paying for over a 335d and no matter what you try to do aftermarket you just won't get anywhere near a D3.

[IJB1959]

Blue62 said:

I'm not sure the S4 is the sweetspot, the one I drove lacked steering feel and the ride never seemed to settle in any mode, in some respects I have a similar issue with the RS but I'm prepared to compromise ride quality because it's seemingly part of the deal nowadays.

I owned the previous RS4 (B7) a few years ago and it was a far better compromise and much more enjoyable to drive, the steering in particular was beautifully weighted and inspired confidence the minute you set off. I get the sense that some manufacturers expect technology to provide the solution and give us so many settings that we blame ourselves for not finding the right balance, in my view Alpina engineers (and come to that Porsche) know how to set a car up to give us the best of both and it's to their credit. That effort, time and expertise is what you are paying for over a 335d and no matter what you try to do aftermarket you just won't get anywhere near a D3.

Agreed. Alpina is way ahead in terms of driveability than you average BMW. Strange comparison to start with though, two very different cars albeit similar engine size, price, and they are estates. Maybe I'm missing the reasoning behind the test??