RE: HPI's top 10 future classics
Discussion
delta0 said:
Notanotherturbo said:
Yes but you always have to work an RX8 hard because of its lack of torque, the Monaro will tickle along at 70 at 2000 rpm returning high 20s in the process. And all the other cars bar the Rx7 would be similar. And 156 ft/lbs at 5500 rpm is extremely torque light whichever way you cut it 112 ft/lbs per ton, hardly the stuff of dreams :0). Oh and a few hundred quid spent on a 7 and it will be much much quicker than an 8.
I push 30mpg (just!) when cruising at a steady 70mph. That’s not the point of these cars. The fun is winding the engines up and feeling like you are in a race car. The mpg doesn’t drop off much when ragging them unlike the ones in your list especially the V8 which will be single figures if it was anything like my experience with V8s.Torque to the wheels is what counts. With such a large rpm range to play with and the gear ratios are much shorter which gives it a lot of acceleration. At 5500rpm you have another 4000rpm to go and really increases the power.
It’s one of those cars that suits people that like racing car style of power delivery and excellent handling. If you like lazier power delivery then that is a completely different experience. This engine is designed to be driven like this which is why it revs so high, plus they put a low ratio gearbox on and coupled it with an incredibly stiff chassis in this car.
Edited by delta0 on Sunday 24th December 00:00
The only downsides to the RX8 for me was the the gearbox which I really didn't like it at all and the supercharger kit from Pettit racing was no longer available.
wolfracesonic said:
peter450 said:
If electric cars become mainstream in the next 15 years, and a cheap petrol substitute that can be made at home on cheap equipment does not come along I expect the market for anything classic will vanish on all but the most expensive exotics.
We're on the verge of a big change in the automotive landscape and if it goes electric (as is looking increasingly likely) the market could change for good. Most people buy classics to use (even if sparingly) if you can't use them, or continuing to use them becomes a major hassle or very expensive, I can't really see the appeal in owning a car that just sits in a garage. If the market survives it will I expect became a preserve of the very rich who can afford expensive fuel deliveries.
I wonder if this is the most prescient post on this thread? I know people say horses are still around even after the introduction of the motor car but horse feed is/will always be available. I don't think the same can be said for petrol, unfortunately; are we all deluding ourselves on here?We're on the verge of a big change in the automotive landscape and if it goes electric (as is looking increasingly likely) the market could change for good. Most people buy classics to use (even if sparingly) if you can't use them, or continuing to use them becomes a major hassle or very expensive, I can't really see the appeal in owning a car that just sits in a garage. If the market survives it will I expect became a preserve of the very rich who can afford expensive fuel deliveries.
Electrification could happen within a very short relative timespan.
I've always dreamed about getting a classic V8 AMG SL (looking good value) or maybe spending a bit more and getting something with a V12 but looking to the future I fear It could be a case of spend a fair bit of money on a soon to be worthless car or they just won't be a viable proposition to run anymore.
yellowstreak said:
oceanview said:
RX8 and TT too common- would be many, many years before they move upwards.
Z4 coupes (especially M) have had strong prices for years and will move upwards, especially as not many around.
I agree with respect to the TT. Why are MGBs still so relatively cheap? There are loads of them. Z4 coupes (especially M) have had strong prices for years and will move upwards, especially as not many around.
My wife wanted a fun car this year and having owned a z3 and z4 in the past, all she wanted was the z3. She wouldn't look at a boxter or s2000. I found a 3.0L one and it's a great little car. Going to enjoy it, but won't be expecting it to go up hugely in value.
Anything half decent MGB wise is fairly pricey now, like all older cars, two cars can look more or less identical but one is knackered and one is in good order, on a cursory glance you get a feel for prices, actually go looking and you realise there is a lot of dross, and it isnt always price that indicates that.
I think the boat has been missed on some, like the S2000, when I looked (and bought a 350Z) there were loads at 3 grand and up, entry level is now six grand but most are eight plus, I reckon that is a car that has already done its appreciating, at least for now, buy one as they are great but I cant see it going up much more, wont lose anything but its not going to rocket.
A Puma 1.7 would be a very safe investment. They simply cannot get any cheaper. A rough one is £150-£200, a nice one £500-£750 and the absolute best (if you ignore the chancer traders trying it on already) won't set you back much more than a grand.
If you hung on to it for 10 years and kept it nice, I'd be amazed if you didn't at least double your money, even adjusted for inflation.
If you hung on to it for 10 years and kept it nice, I'd be amazed if you didn't at least double your money, even adjusted for inflation.
you'll still be able to buy petrol in 20 years time.....
battery tech , lack of electrical infrastructure and lack of lithium all mean we are not going to see the end of the internal combustion engine for some time yet
everything will be hybrid of course but either range extenders or hybrid powertrains as the energy density of petrol is still an order of magnitude over sparky
battery tech , lack of electrical infrastructure and lack of lithium all mean we are not going to see the end of the internal combustion engine for some time yet
everything will be hybrid of course but either range extenders or hybrid powertrains as the energy density of petrol is still an order of magnitude over sparky
Edited by 350Matt on Sunday 24th December 11:14
speedtwelve said:
O/T that's an epic current fleet you have in your profile. Nice. Incidentally the RX8 replaced my 6.0 Monaro VXR 
Sorry hadn't been updated for a year or so, a bit different now, I've given it an update and added some pics too. I was considering an RX8 as a cheap track car a while back, I know you obviously like cars that rev judging from your car history but I'm too old and lazy to try that hard :0). Great for trackdays but I like torque for my road cars :0).I had a 22B for 7 years, and in that time it appreciated quite a lot (sold end of 2014). The unfortunate thing is, prices REALLY gained shortly after I sold it. Insert gallows humour here.
Still, I would say, I put the money into a property project, and that made probably 3 times as much. Because of that, its got me thinking that while the whole car appreciation thing is great (and it is), you can do better elsewhere.
Still, its a different entry point price wise, so horses for courses I guess.
In saying all that, I really think a lot of the discussion missed is in the numbers produced. I agonised over whether to buy my 22B, but in the end became convinced due to the limited numbers produced. I'd be looking at this as the STARTING point for any of these. If the car was made in the thousands, then it wont be that rare (supply and demand).
I'd love to hear the production numbers in any of the suggestions.
Still, I would say, I put the money into a property project, and that made probably 3 times as much. Because of that, its got me thinking that while the whole car appreciation thing is great (and it is), you can do better elsewhere.
Still, its a different entry point price wise, so horses for courses I guess.
In saying all that, I really think a lot of the discussion missed is in the numbers produced. I agonised over whether to buy my 22B, but in the end became convinced due to the limited numbers produced. I'd be looking at this as the STARTING point for any of these. If the car was made in the thousands, then it wont be that rare (supply and demand).
I'd love to hear the production numbers in any of the suggestions.
peter450 said:
Most people buy classics to use (even if sparingly) if you can't use them, or continuing to use them becomes a major hassle or very expensive
Using a classic is already more of a hassle than using something more prosaic - that's part of the fun isn't it? We will still be digging fossil juice out of the ground for decades to come, even if we have a fantastic EV charging infrastructure, there are plenty of places that won't - and there is a lot more to oil than petrol.As long as there are a reasonable number of people who want to run a petrol engine, it will be relatively easy to do so.
peter450 said:
Electrification could happen within a very short relative timespan.
Yes. This seems more likely than most of us realise at the moment. By this time next year, OEMs will be bursting with announcements as well as with actual launches of non-hybrid, plug-in battery electric cars. If governments continue with incentives and subsidies, we'll jump by leaps and bounds toward the tipping point.
If you own or will own a Mustang GT six-speed: Don't ever sell it
culpz said:
Some of these are definitely going to spark up alot of controversy, that's for sure! Here's my view on each:
Westfield - all models, £6,000-£15,000 - Yes but it's not surprising really. Depreciation on such kit cars is practically nil. They can only go one way and it ain't down!
Vauxhall VX220 - all models, £9,000-£13,000 - Yes but, again, not surprising. These have already been steadily rising over the years. Almost guaranteed to go up.
Peugeot 205 - GTI 1.6 and 1.9, £4,000-£9,000 - Yes. Same as the above two. A very obvious one to carry on appreciating over time.
Audi TT - 3.2 V6, £3,000-£6,000 - Not convinced. Not particularly special enough and can still be had sub 3k. Been that way for a while now.
BMW Z3 - all models, £1,500-£6,000 - Not convinced at all. Not as good as the Z4 and they're in the same boat. Not that well received. Only the 2.8 6-cylinders may keep their value, at best.
Citroen C6 - all models, £4,000-£8,000 - Not a chance.
Rover Mini - all models, £3,000-£8,000 - Potentially. Universally loved and a real analogue experience. Getting rare now.
Alfa Romeo GTV - all models, £1,000-£6,000 - Not convinced. Not really that special. Only the 2.5 V6 could swing it for higher values.
Nissan Cube - all models, £2,000-£5,000 - Not a chance.
Mazda RX-8 - all models, £500-£3,000 - Not convinced. They can be had way too cheap for them to rise significantly.
Completely agree.Westfield - all models, £6,000-£15,000 - Yes but it's not surprising really. Depreciation on such kit cars is practically nil. They can only go one way and it ain't down!
Vauxhall VX220 - all models, £9,000-£13,000 - Yes but, again, not surprising. These have already been steadily rising over the years. Almost guaranteed to go up.
Peugeot 205 - GTI 1.6 and 1.9, £4,000-£9,000 - Yes. Same as the above two. A very obvious one to carry on appreciating over time.
Audi TT - 3.2 V6, £3,000-£6,000 - Not convinced. Not particularly special enough and can still be had sub 3k. Been that way for a while now.
BMW Z3 - all models, £1,500-£6,000 - Not convinced at all. Not as good as the Z4 and they're in the same boat. Not that well received. Only the 2.8 6-cylinders may keep their value, at best.
Citroen C6 - all models, £4,000-£8,000 - Not a chance.
Rover Mini - all models, £3,000-£8,000 - Potentially. Universally loved and a real analogue experience. Getting rare now.
Alfa Romeo GTV - all models, £1,000-£6,000 - Not convinced. Not really that special. Only the 2.5 V6 could swing it for higher values.
Nissan Cube - all models, £2,000-£5,000 - Not a chance.
Mazda RX-8 - all models, £500-£3,000 - Not convinced. They can be had way too cheap for them to rise significantly.
There is some kind of fervour for people with more money than sense to 'invest' in something that'll make them millions!
Just look at bitcoin.
Only the mintest examples of cars with fundamental desirability will be worth anything once the market craps itself ala 2008/2009.
Between now and then expect values of any old s
t to go up, driven there by desperate greedy idiots.I dont think any of these are going to appreciate massively, it is more just a case of values not dropping further into banger territory, all listed have a certain amount of interest about them and will find buyers, the rises they will see are perhaps down to inflation in part.
Dont buy any of these, and 99 percent of most cars expecting to make money, if you can buy a car, not spend much over basic maintenance and standing costs (Ved, MOT, insurance) and then sell it on for more or less what you paid for it, having enjoyed it then that should be a reason to celebrate.
You can make money but it is fraught with danger, bills on older cars can really mount up if you buy the wrong one.
Dont buy any of these, and 99 percent of most cars expecting to make money, if you can buy a car, not spend much over basic maintenance and standing costs (Ved, MOT, insurance) and then sell it on for more or less what you paid for it, having enjoyed it then that should be a reason to celebrate.
You can make money but it is fraught with danger, bills on older cars can really mount up if you buy the wrong one.
Pretty much anything from Japan via the grey market will become future classics/investments as the majority of the cars bought during the grey market boom have been written off now. Any JDM manual rwd car is getting to silly prices now.
Rx8's will end up like the Mx5 mk1's where they get used for drift days, wrecked then there's only a handful left that's not rusty/crashed
Rx8's will end up like the Mx5 mk1's where they get used for drift days, wrecked then there's only a handful left that's not rusty/crashed
Edited by KaiserDahms on Monday 25th December 13:03
To make money to justify keeping an old expensive car you have to sell it to a buyer.
Are there really many around?
Very few buy private, and traders want their massive cut.
Maybe traders selling stuff over priced on credit is distorting things?
I'd have to think long and hard about buying anything older than 15 years now.
Most will be rusty and increasingly knackered and need £££ and time just to get them nice to be able to be resold 5 years down the line.
If you buy an old car and it goes from fsh to non fsh or non dealer history, and goes from ok to rusty arches, you're screwed vs those who keep them nice who'll sell theirs to the buyer market over yours.
I like to think I keep my old Z4 nice but it's at a point where my 'to do' list is at about 50% of it's value if not more.
Wheels, bubbly bits starting on arches, redoing rear dampers, etc etc.
I know for a fact most are worse than mine.
And the handful of nice ones even then aren't worth that much more.
And that's a 13 yr old fairly modern cheap to run car imo.
You'd need to expect a £2,500 RX8 in mint nick now to be worth £12,500 in 3 yrs time just to justify the maintenance and 'keeping nice' costs.
All the cars above are a gamble at best.
You genuinely have more chance making money with bitcoin.
The only one I'd fancy would be a vx220 buy even then only as a car to actually use and expect to be at a net loss over time.
Are there really many around?
Very few buy private, and traders want their massive cut.
Maybe traders selling stuff over priced on credit is distorting things?
I'd have to think long and hard about buying anything older than 15 years now.
Most will be rusty and increasingly knackered and need £££ and time just to get them nice to be able to be resold 5 years down the line.
If you buy an old car and it goes from fsh to non fsh or non dealer history, and goes from ok to rusty arches, you're screwed vs those who keep them nice who'll sell theirs to the buyer market over yours.
I like to think I keep my old Z4 nice but it's at a point where my 'to do' list is at about 50% of it's value if not more.
Wheels, bubbly bits starting on arches, redoing rear dampers, etc etc.
I know for a fact most are worse than mine.
And the handful of nice ones even then aren't worth that much more.
And that's a 13 yr old fairly modern cheap to run car imo.
You'd need to expect a £2,500 RX8 in mint nick now to be worth £12,500 in 3 yrs time just to justify the maintenance and 'keeping nice' costs.
All the cars above are a gamble at best.
You genuinely have more chance making money with bitcoin.
The only one I'd fancy would be a vx220 buy even then only as a car to actually use and expect to be at a net loss over time.
350Matt said:
you'll still be able to buy petrol in 20 years time.....
battery tech , lack of electrical infrastructure and lack of lithium all mean we are not going to see the end of the internal combustion engine for some time yet
everything will be hybrid of course but either range extenders or hybrid powertrains as the energy density of petrol is still an order of magnitude over sparky
This. According to BP there is enough oil to last more than fifty years so I don't see any catastrophe in the classic car market just yet! There is always going to an interest in old/classic cars driven by nostalgia & styling & when the electric/hybrid cars eventually become commonplace I think the appeal of an older & simpler car will increase not decrease ................ in the next fifty years of course!battery tech , lack of electrical infrastructure and lack of lithium all mean we are not going to see the end of the internal combustion engine for some time yet
everything will be hybrid of course but either range extenders or hybrid powertrains as the energy density of petrol is still an order of magnitude over sparky
Edited by 350Matt on Sunday 24th December 11:14
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