RE: VW Up GTI vs Mini Cooper
Discussion
Instead of constantly building over-inflated caricatures of the first gen MINI, I wish BMW would sanction a lighter, back to basics model aka The Rocketman. Ironically, it sounds like this would be the more genuine successor to original GTI as well as classic Mini. The first gen MINI R50/52/53 remains the best to date for attempting this.
Cobnapint said:
Yep. The present Mini is bloody awful.
I was quite critical when the R53 came out that where as the original 'classic' Mini was a little car with a lot of space where as the R53 was a big car with little space, so it defeated the point of the Mini (Style over the Mini's planned function) but in hindsight I would say the R53 by current standards, was a fun pocket-rocket which kept enough spirit of the original.The current MINI looks a quality piece of kit but everthing has inflated and inflated and it looks very bloated and overweight. The rear lights in particular look like two giant Haribo sweets stuck to the back..
These two cars look a whole market segment away from eachother, and both miss their respective marks, in my opinion..
Fire99 said:
These two cars look a whole market segment away from eachother, and both miss their respective marks, in my opinion..
I think MINI define the marks in question though. They never said they would stick to the original size. All cars grow generation after generation.The current car is brilliant for someone's particular needs, it really is not awful.
If it's the brand name that worries people they should forget about it and judge the car on its own merit.
That's the issue with the MINI, it's criticised for being about marketing...by people using a marketing thought process.
nickfrog said:
I think MINI define the marks in question though. They never said they would stick to the original size. All cars grow generation after generation.
The current car is brilliant for someone's particular needs, it really is not awful.
If it's the brand name that worries people they should forget about it and judge the car on its own merit.
That's the issue with the MINI, it's criticised for being about marketing...by people using a marketing thought process.
I would be inclinded to disagree mostly because the R53 still bridged the gap (mostly) to the car that clearly was selling on the back of, a la the Mini. The current one may be a 'good car', I can't dispute that but it's styling and ability still hang on to the apron-strings of the original and for that it now looks a big, fat caricature of the car that it takes it's cues from..The current car is brilliant for someone's particular needs, it really is not awful.
If it's the brand name that worries people they should forget about it and judge the car on its own merit.
That's the issue with the MINI, it's criticised for being about marketing...by people using a marketing thought process.
I can't say I'm overly blown away by any car following the trend of continually growing. Fiesta, Audi A3, Merdedes A-Class etc but they somewhat get away with it because they don't herald back to an iconic original.
The MINI to me is like the Fiat 500. You have to be careful how far you deviate from the original before it gets a bit ridiculous & nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
Fire99 said:
nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
While I totally see your point of view (and mostly agree with it in fact), the bit above is quite subjective. I ran a R56S. I thought it looked stupid but liked it for the way it drove, not everyone attaches importance to image/looks. And that's the bit I was on about. Why criticise its looks/image based on the assumptions that those matter to someone and even if they do, that everyone agrees on such a subjective element ?Cobnapint said:
Looks. It's moved away from the first two gens that BMW did quite well. For me the USP of the Mini has gone.
The Clubman in particular is a 10 pinter.
First time I looked around a showroom of current Mini's I thought I was looking at a Countryman... until walked around the back and realised it was a normal one! The Clubman in particular is a 10 pinter.
nickfrog said:
Fire99 said:
nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
While I totally see your point of view (and mostly agree with it in fact), the bit above is quite subjective. I ran a R56S. I thought it looked stupid but liked it for the way it drove, 
I really, really want to like it... But it weighs about the same as a 3 cylinder Fiesta.
It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
cerb4.5lee said:
nickfrog said:
Fire99 said:
nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
While I totally see your point of view (and mostly agree with it in fact), the bit above is quite subjective. I ran a R56S. I thought it looked stupid but liked it for the way it drove, 
I don't doubt the car's abilities, but visually and it's overall proportions, it's an unnecessary dissapointment after their (relative) success with the R53 MINI... As I think I've said, the Mini was iconic and the R53 was respectful enough to the original. The latest edition isn't.. (to me)Fire99 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
nickfrog said:
Fire99 said:
nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
While I totally see your point of view (and mostly agree with it in fact), the bit above is quite subjective. I ran a R56S. I thought it looked stupid but liked it for the way it drove, I don't doubt the car's abilities, but visually and it's overall proportions, it's an unnecessary dissapointment after their (relative) success with the R53 MINI... As I think I've said, the Mini was iconic and the R53 was respectful enough to the original. The latest edition isn't.. (to me)
The current MINI sums BMW up to a tee for me, they make really good drivers cars but they specialise in an ugly design sadly.
nickfrog said:
Fire99 said:
nothing more than a chintzy fashion show....
While I totally see your point of view (and mostly agree with it in fact), the bit above is quite subjective. I ran a R56S. I thought it looked stupid but liked it for the way it drove, not everyone attaches importance to image/looks. And that's the bit I was on about. Why criticise its looks/image based on the assumptions that those matter to someone and even if they do, that everyone agrees on such a subjective element ?Anyway, back on topic, I remember CAR doing a comparison of the Cooper with the UP Gti's elderly cousin
Mackofthejungle said:
I really, really want to like it... But it weighs about the same as a 3 cylinder Fiesta.
It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
Why don’t you drive one and then make your mind up?It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
andrewparker said:
Mackofthejungle said:
I really, really want to like it... But it weighs about the same as a 3 cylinder Fiesta.
It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
Why don’t you drive one and then make your mind up?It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
Cobnapint said:
Dolf Stoppard said:
Cobnapint said:
Yep. The present Mini is bloody awful.
In what way?The Clubman in particular is a 10 pinter.
Granted, its lost the cutesy look and size of the R53 and R56 but its a more mature car all round.
From the performance variant perspective the engines being used now are much more tuneable. The 2.0i in the Cooper S can be lifted from 192BHP to 246BHP with a multi-point tuning box and to 291 BHP with a remap.
So yes, its lost some of its looks, but there are positives.
andrewparker said:
Mackofthejungle said:
I really, really want to like it... But it weighs about the same as a 3 cylinder Fiesta.
It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
Why don’t you drive one and then make your mind up?It's at least 100kgs too heavy. I'd have expected the number to start with an 8 to be honest. Which is just the way they designed the Up - I'm sure it's pretty safe - but it's disappointing nonetheless. For a car that's 40, FORTY centimeters shorter than a Fiesta.. Sure, more power overcomes the weight, but then you're off down a crap road of crap car design.
Still, having sat in a standard Up I think the interior and the sense of air and lightness is wonderful. This looks like they've tarted up the touch points and given it some nice seats - perfect. I bet it's great.. And the lack of power will only be a good thing.. While X in their A4 is stuck behind you having no fun, you're having the time of your life at 60mph - why do we buy fast cars again?
I agree with a lot of what he says, what exactly have they done to make it so much heavier than the base model?
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