Re : Porsche Cayman S (987) vs. 718 Cayman T
Discussion
Regarding this idea that 718 values will plummet, this doesn’t seem to be ringing true in the real world.
I recently sold a sensibly specced 718 (actually remarkably similar to standard “T” spec actually) to a Porsche dealer and ended up losing about £12k over just under 3 years (33 months) and 17k miles meaning that it retained almost 70% of its value which is pretty insane and by far the best car I have ever owned from a residual value perspective.
It was a straight sale as well, so I didn’t buy anything new from Porsche that the good sale price could have been wrapped into.
The dealer then had it up for £5k more than they paid me, and it disappeared off their used site within 2 weeks so clearly there seems to be demand and Porsche residuals seems as strong as ever.
Car wasn’t bad either to be honest.
Well with these comparisons everyone is right, and everyone is wrong, however if I can give my opinion. I've owned a 987 and 981 for a number of years, and having had a 718 rental car for 4 months, I can confidently say the 987 is the far better car.
Not just marginally better, but vastly, in every department.
YMMV
Not just marginally better, but vastly, in every department.
YMMV
nickfrog said:
PhantomPH said:
nickfrog said:
They make for a very versatile daily indeed.
Not if you don't want to cry at trade-in time. The dealer still has my eyes after removing them at trade-in of my 718S...
Ha ha.A1VDY said:
HighwayStar said:
TimoMak said:
SidewaysSi said:
A 987 with £5k ish of kit thrown at it would destroy the new car to drive.
Think you’ve been overdoing the Christmas Baileys there Sideways... but it is very clear from your posts that you don’t have much automotive knowledge. Personally I’d love either of these, and a remap in the case of the turbo, however just because I can’t afford the new one I don’t feel obligated to criticise (unlike some jealous owners of older models..)
...So much snobbery in the UK. V entertaining tho...
My gen1 S has 23k miles, never been on a wet road and is concours condition. Its likely worth way over book to an enthusiast but I'd have to be offered stupid money to sell it.
I couldn't afford outright the purchase of a new 718 but then again wouldn't want one.
Those poor b
ds with 2.8RSRs who can't get into a new 718. I pity the fools...the debate here sounds a bit like a fanboy fight from mum’s basement...
i think the question is two-faceted: do we like easy/lazy/low down torque? we’d all say yes; but do we like lag and high-rev platitude? we’d mainly say no. I haven’t driven the cars in duel now, so I cannot express a final judgement, but I always tend to vote for the minority, so in 2019 it has to be the na six pot. Probably in 1995 I would have said that a 993rs was pointless and a 993 turbo the way to go. Ultimately, both are great, so all good until both are available, which is far from granted. That said, turbos are more likely to be massively overshadowed by electric motors, which are simultaneously smoother and torquier, whereas highly strung na engines will remain peculiar even in the future.
i think the question is two-faceted: do we like easy/lazy/low down torque? we’d all say yes; but do we like lag and high-rev platitude? we’d mainly say no. I haven’t driven the cars in duel now, so I cannot express a final judgement, but I always tend to vote for the minority, so in 2019 it has to be the na six pot. Probably in 1995 I would have said that a 993rs was pointless and a 993 turbo the way to go. Ultimately, both are great, so all good until both are available, which is far from granted. That said, turbos are more likely to be massively overshadowed by electric motors, which are simultaneously smoother and torquier, whereas highly strung na engines will remain peculiar even in the future.
Edited by virgilio on Friday 27th December 21:52
PhantomPH said:
The 981CGTS held it's value incredibly well over a comparable ownership period (I only lost the dealer spread). By comparison, the 718CS urinated money away. I would love to still have my 718CS actually, but I had no real choice (thank you cancer!) HOWEVER my new plan is to be into a 911 Carrera T in the next 12 months. I've heard good things about those and I may break my own rule and allow Litchfield to lightly tickle it. Ha ha.
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-driven/litchfield-porsche-911-carrera-t-driven/38883 Ha ha.You know it makes sense! It just looks so right from both an aesthetic and technical point of view.
Such a great comparison to see as I look to buy a 987.1 cayman. Seeing the family resemblance in the pics goes to show they are still blood brothers. Age has been kind to the 987 generation both in terms of realising the 6 cylinder was a masterful engine and a great new mid engine platform design.
Have driven several 718s now. Spec makes these things. The difference between a base t and a loaded 2.5s with sport chrono and spasm is large. A loaded 2.5 is super quick and made a back to back drive with a 997 pdk turbo, made the 997 feel slow and a bit of an old mans car.
With respect to tuning, both seem like they would benefit greatly from this. 5k of ohlins dampers, LCAs and Michelin’s on the 987 would transform it. A stage 1 or 2 tune on the 718 would also unleash the kind of hp that the na could only dream of and that a base 991.2 would find hard to compete with.
Have driven several 718s now. Spec makes these things. The difference between a base t and a loaded 2.5s with sport chrono and spasm is large. A loaded 2.5 is super quick and made a back to back drive with a 997 pdk turbo, made the 997 feel slow and a bit of an old mans car.
With respect to tuning, both seem like they would benefit greatly from this. 5k of ohlins dampers, LCAs and Michelin’s on the 987 would transform it. A stage 1 or 2 tune on the 718 would also unleash the kind of hp that the na could only dream of and that a base 991.2 would find hard to compete with.
I still miss my 987.2CS. Lovely drive, delicate steering full of feel, bit noisy and sensitive to tyre quality, pressure and condition. An LSD is a worthwhile addition. I was a bit trepidatious when I had a 718 base loaner for the day a couple of years later. But I needn’t have worried, the magic is still there, and it seemed faster. Engine clattery tho in not a nice way which I’d struggle a bit with. But both fine cars. Given the choice I’d buy whichever had the right spec in my budget with a proper service history. The old ones still look nice and big mileages shouldn’t put you off if you get an inspection and factor in any fixing that’s needed.
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
saxy said:
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
Yeah outright top speed and 0-100 spec sheet buying is about the only thing a modern turbo saloon like a stinger can compete on. In all other respects completely different propositions. Lots of people sucked into buying on 0-100 times and stats with modern cars. Sports Cars of 10 years ago will be comparable, but bet by tenths of seconds here and several mpg there. Misssing the rest of the points on what makes a real sports car special.
HokumPokum said:
weight is wrong
987 is not 1425kg. The cayman R is 1295kg so cayman s is at most mid 1300kg and 718 is 100kg heavier.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=231&t=1492529&p=1987 is not 1425kg. The cayman R is 1295kg so cayman s is at most mid 1300kg and 718 is 100kg heavier.
A fellow PHer weighed his here at 1358kg. I think with the industry 2/3rds tank (is that correct) it'd be 1385kg as I read elsewhere. I don't think there's much in it.
Edited by Niffty951 on Saturday 28th December 09:03
One area I would disagree with in the article is the issue of the steering. Stating that the world has moved on and that the buyer requires different things, personally I think is untrue. Hydraulics haven't been replaced with electric racks due to customer requirement, it's as far as I can see, a legislative issue in trying to improve engine efficiency and CO2/ Emission reduction.
I can't see how any sportscar driver would want their steering more filtered with less intuitive feel.
I can't see how any sportscar driver would want their steering more filtered with less intuitive feel.
Fire99 said:
Hydraulics haven't been replaced with electric racks due to customer requirement, it's as far as I can see, a legislative issue in trying to improve engine efficiency and CO2/ Emission reduction.
I can't see how any sportscar driver would want their steering more filtered with less intuitive feel.
Agreed, the so named parasitic losses such as pumps that are powered whenever the engine is turning are all being replaced by electric motors (even the ABS has several). It causes manufacturers a hard time as in most cases the older pumps are far better at the job, more efficient when needed and less complex/more reliable.I can't see how any sportscar driver would want their steering more filtered with less intuitive feel.
The trade off is in not being able to turn them off when not needed (like during emissions cycles). I don't think we'll ever see a reverse of the trend but I agree it's certainly not customer driven.
saxy said:
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
Don't doubt a Stinger GT is a half decent sporting saloon but why even mention it in this context? When the Stinger is 10 years old you'll be lucky if it is worth half of what a 10 year old gen 2 987 S is worth now and not that it matters but for the record the Cayman S is genuine 170mph+ car.
Also if you can live with 2 seats no reason not to daily it, plenty do.
saxy said:
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
A Kia Stinger. What relevance is that?1. How many people think Porsche would have actually chosen to use 4 cyl turbo engines instead of NA 6 cyl ones, and electric steering instead of hydraulic if it wasn’t for politicians and co2 targets?
2. Did Porsche buyers ask for these changes as a preference?
(Here’s a sentence no-one said, ‘I wish Porsche would just ditch these crappy NA 6 cyl engines, what I want is a turbo 4!’)
If the answers to these questions are, probably no-one, and, no, then you can only conclude the latest cars are now a compromise in terms of being drivers cars.
How good would the latest cars have been unhindered by fleet average co2 targets?
Not saying the current cars are bad cars at all, but it’s not progress to me, even if they are faster. If you just want instant speed buy a Tesla.
2. Did Porsche buyers ask for these changes as a preference?
(Here’s a sentence no-one said, ‘I wish Porsche would just ditch these crappy NA 6 cyl engines, what I want is a turbo 4!’)
If the answers to these questions are, probably no-one, and, no, then you can only conclude the latest cars are now a compromise in terms of being drivers cars.
How good would the latest cars have been unhindered by fleet average co2 targets?
Not saying the current cars are bad cars at all, but it’s not progress to me, even if they are faster. If you just want instant speed buy a Tesla.
yonex said:
saxy said:
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
A Kia Stinger. What relevance is that?They’re not hypercars, they’re entry level mid-engined sports cars that always prioritised good handling & being fun to drive.
saxy said:
I know the appeal of a cayman/boxster was always in its handling department. But I find it crazy that my Stinger GT that I bought fully loaded for the price of a base 320i, accelerates faster and has a higher top speed. I guess same can be said about golf R's and a35's nowadays. Every time I want to go check out these 2nd hand heros that I once loved, just don't make sense buying unless it's for the manual gearbox and that I have a free extra parking space because a Cayman would have to be someone's 2nd car, and not their only.
The stinger gt is a great car and i sort of see your point, it isn't as fast as a GTS though. Ive driven both and own a 718 GTS and it's a fair bit quicker in the real world.The stinger definitely sounds better!
Whilst I really love the Cayman in all it's guises and I can see the attraction in taking a couple out for a spin, this article is a bit of a waste of time. The comparison between them is utterly flawed because the older car is driving round on a shagged-out set of tyres. One can deduce that, if they're bad enough to make the writer mention their condition, then they must be bad.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff