High grip or lower grip tyres for road use?

[xjay1337]

300bhp/ton said:

here have I said about fitting crappy tyres??? Are you reading the wrong posts or something?

If the NS2R isn’t good in the wet. Why is it marketed as being so? As said my semi slick Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet.

Marketing can LIE... maybe you've only just realised this.

I'm telling you that NS2R are crap in the wet and Cup2s are also pretty crap in wet with any standing water.
Up to temp on a "damp" circuit they're OK up to the point of water dissipation limits. PS4 are faster on a properly wet circuit.

As I said , if you're not doing trackdays , buy PS4 or your other choice of premium UHP summer tyres.

Are you doing trackdays? Does the car get driven in wet weather regularly ?

I still maintain fitting deliberately lower grip tyres is dumb and so is any sort of drifting or "getting tail out" on the public road. Incredibly so. Certainly not impressive to brag about either.

Only need to read on these pages about the guy who was out on a leisure drive who ended up in Jail.

Don't be that guy. Take it to the track.

And on track - there is no reason to not use your premium UHP tyre

[SidewaysSi]

xjay1337 said:

SidewaysSi said:

Our definition of "being obtuse" obviously differs...

Either way, I expect you to be contacting every engineering department of all the OEMs and demand they only fit PS4s to all new cars. And ensure they only offer the widest tyres humanely possible when they are at it.

Anything else would just lead to the death of many kittens and children after all.

Not at all.

Feel free to fit Pzero. Or s001. Or eagle F1. Or hankook s1 evo2


But I certainly wouldn't decide to fit "worse tyres" for example "Avons" or "Toyos" because I want to be "closer to the limit of slip" because of the viewpoint that "you want to be closer to break away for more driving pleasure "

What an unequivocally moronic viewpoint.


Also I wouldn't fit semi slicks TO A CAR THAT NEVER GOES ON TRACK.

That's equally moronic.

I track more than most on here and I use.....PS4...... all year round .....

xjay1337 said:

SidewaysSi said:

Our definition of "being obtuse" obviously differs...

Either way, I expect you to be contacting every engineering department of all the OEMs and demand they only fit PS4s to all new cars. And ensure they only offer the widest tyres humanely possible when they are at it.

Anything else would just lead to the death of many kittens and children after all.

Not at all.

Feel free to fit Pzero. Or s001. Or eagle F1. Or hankook s1 evo2


But I certainly wouldn't decide to fit "worse tyres" for example "Avons" or "Toyos" because I want to be "closer to the limit of slip" because of the viewpoint that "you want to be closer to break away for more driving pleasure "

What an unequivocally moronic viewpoint.


Also I wouldn't fit semi slicks TO A CAR THAT NEVER GOES ON TRACK.

That's equally moronic.

I track more than most on here and I use.....PS4...... all year round .....

So you are now changing your tune I see - we don't all now need to buy a set of PS4s. Even something as pathetic as Hankooks now pass your lofty standards...?! They will provide less grip than the Michelins you know.

So you track"more than most on here"? That's quite a claim it has to be said. But does that matter or give your views more weight than anyone else? I rather look at reviews by professionals and many don't automatically place Michelins at the top of the pile.

People have different wants and needs so don't assume they are the same as you.

[GravelBen]

Some of these posters must struggle to avoid seizures having to share roads with vans, buses, trucks, 4wds wearing mud tyres, older cars owned by people that can't afford to spend the value of the car on tyres, everything else with less grip than a modern car on UHP tyres... you know, most of the traffic on the road.

So much inferior grip, everyone must have died and gone to jail 5 times already.

Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 4th July 23:03

[fastraxx]

GravelBen said:

Some of these posters must have struggle to avoid seizures having to share roads with vans, buses, trucks, 4wds wearing mud tyres, older cars owned by people that can't afford to spend the value of the car on tyres, everything else with less grip than a modern car on UHP tyres... you know, most of the traffic on the road.

So much inferior grip, everyone must have died and gone to jail 5 times already.

[mike9009]

xjay1337 said:

300bhp/ton said:

here have I said about fitting crappy tyres??? Are you reading the wrong posts or something?

If the NS2R isn’t good in the wet. Why is it marketed as being so? As said my semi slick Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet.

Marketing can LIE... maybe you've only just realised this.

I'm telling you that NS2R are crap in the wet and Cup2s are also pretty crap in wet with any standing water.
Up to temp on a "damp" circuit they're OK up to the point of water dissipation limits. PS4 are faster on a properly wet circuit.

As I said , if you're not doing trackdays , buy PS4 or your other choice of premium UHP summer tyres.

Are you doing trackdays? Does the car get driven in wet weather regularly ?

I still maintain fitting deliberately lower grip tyres is dumb and so is any sort of drifting or "getting tail out" on the public road. Incredibly so. Certainly not impressive to brag about either.

Only need to read on these pages about the guy who was out on a leisure drive who ended up in Jail.

Don't be that guy. Take it to the track.

And on track - there is no reason to not use your premium UHP tyre

The ultimate aim for some people is not to go as quick as possible. If that is the aim the highest grip tyres are the best choice. But not all of us want to go Mach 4 on the roads......so hitting the limits of traction at lower speeds if preferable..

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion would mean banning RWD and insisting on AWD. But not everyone wants to get to their destination in the wet in the shortest possible time. That is dumb...

[Johnnytheboy]

My Focus is semi retired now, and I thought of fitting it with tyres with loads of dry grip at the expense of wet grip, as I only ever get it out in dry weather.

Then last year I had to drive it to its annual prebooked service & MOT in awful weather, and realised that was a daft idea.

[300bhp/ton]

xjay1337 said:

Marketing can LIE... maybe you've only just realised this.

I'm telling you that NS2R are crap in the wet and Cup2s are also pretty crap in wet with any standing water.
Up to temp on a "damp" circuit they're OK up to the point of water dissipation limits. PS4 are faster on a properly wet circuit.

As I said , if you're not doing trackdays , buy PS4 or your other choice of premium UHP summer tyres.

Are you doing trackdays? Does the car get driven in wet weather regularly ?

I still maintain fitting deliberately lower grip tyres is dumb and so is any sort of drifting or "getting tail out" on the public road. Incredibly so. Certainly not impressive to brag about either.

Only need to read on these pages about the guy who was out on a leisure drive who ended up in Jail.

Don't be that guy. Take it to the track.

And on track - there is no reason to not use your premium UHP tyre

I think you are getting mixed up.

High grip = semi slick
Lower grip = normal road tyre

Are you really trying to say fitting a normal road tyre is not acceptable?

[DonkeyApple]

Johnnytheboy said:

My Focus is semi retired now, and I thought of fitting it with tyres with loads of dry grip at the expense of wet grip, as I only ever get it out in dry weather.

Then last year I had to drive it to its annual prebooked service & MOT in awful weather, and realised that was a daft idea.

In many regards, living in the UK, fitting a car with semi slicks isn’t much different to fitting a car with a random selection of used ditch finders.

Arguably it takes a special kind of tool to fit tyres so completely out of kilter with living in a temperate, island climate, or someone who will only ever use a car well within the narrow band of changeability.

Plus, most cars these days are fitted with Carlos Fandagos so compromising on wet weather ability makes even less sense.

[SidewaysSi]

mike9009 said:

xjay1337 said:

300bhp/ton said:

here have I said about fitting crappy tyres??? Are you reading the wrong posts or something?

If the NS2R isn’t good in the wet. Why is it marketed as being so? As said my semi slick Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet.

Marketing can LIE... maybe you've only just realised this.

I'm telling you that NS2R are crap in the wet and Cup2s are also pretty crap in wet with any standing water.
Up to temp on a "damp" circuit they're OK up to the point of water dissipation limits. PS4 are faster on a properly wet circuit.

As I said , if you're not doing trackdays , buy PS4 or your other choice of premium UHP summer tyres.

Are you doing trackdays? Does the car get driven in wet weather regularly ?

I still maintain fitting deliberately lower grip tyres is dumb and so is any sort of drifting or "getting tail out" on the public road. Incredibly so. Certainly not impressive to brag about either.

Only need to read on these pages about the guy who was out on a leisure drive who ended up in Jail.

Don't be that guy. Take it to the track.

And on track - there is no reason to not use your premium UHP tyre

The ultimate aim for some people is not to go as quick as possible. If that is the aim the highest grip tyres are the best choice. But not all of us want to go Mach 4 on the roads......so hitting the limits of traction at lower speeds if preferable..

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion would mean banning RWD and insisting on AWD. But not everyone wants to get to their destination in the wet in the shortest possible time. That is dumb...

But you don't do as many trackdays as Mr 1337 so what do you know??!

[Hagus]

The enjoyment from driving my 100bhp triumph spitfire comes in a large way from it’s low grip, the engine and suspension is tweaked but the tyres remain 155’s, so you can feel the car moving around at much lower speeds. If I had big wheels with sticky tyres I’d be able to corner much faster, with a much more violent breakaway if I did pass it’s limits.

The way some people are talking on here you’d think I was very irresponsible.

[V8RX7]

xjay1337 said:

I still maintain fitting deliberately lower grip tyres is dumb and so is any sort of drifting or "getting tail out" on the public road. Incredibly so.

Only need to read on these pages about the guy who was out on a leisure drive who ended up in Jail.

Take it to the track.

And on track - there is no reason to not use your premium UHP tyre

So we can consider your comments in the light of your experience, what cars are you currently driving and what cars have you owned ?

Everyone bangs on about 10penceshort and it is worth considering but what about the other tens / hundreds of thousands who don't have an issue - I'm 30+ years without an accident, I deliberately choose cars with lower grip - my MX5 has 195 tyres, no driver aids, 240bhp - it's great fun

What trackdays allow me to drift around corners - other than pure drift days I'm unaware of them

Why would I want to play with driving on the edge of grip at higher speeds and with more expensive tyres - more risk at more cost doesn't make sense to me

[xjay1337]

V8RX7 said:

So we can consider your comments in the light of your experience, what cars are you currently driving and what cars have you owned ?

Everyone bangs on about 10penceshort and it is worth considering but what about the other tens / hundreds of thousands who don't have an issue - I'm 30+ years without an accident, I deliberately choose cars with lower grip - my MX5 has 195 tyres, no driver aids, 240bhp - it's great fun

What trackdays allow me to drift around corners - other than pure drift days I'm unaware of them

Why would I want to play with driving on the edge of grip at higher speeds and with more expensive tyres - more risk at more cost doesn't make sense to me

The only circuit I've ever had problems drifting at at Bedford.

No problems at Oulton Park, Anglesey, Snetterton, Brands, nurburgring, Spa , or Donnington or Mallory or the other couple of circuits I've forgotten about. The only hint is to makes sure you don't do it with cars around you!

My current car is an M135i which I have completed around 14 trackdays in. I've had that for 2 years.
Generally I'm one of the fastest "road cars" cars on track. Aside from at the Ring where I'm too pussy so I was slow AF.

Prior to that I built over 4.5 years a Scirocco track car which I completed 7 or 8 days in.

Not sure why it specifically matters what I'm currently driving :-)

Also I spent a large part of my youth on motorcycles as I did my bike test before my car test. I'm pretty switched on to the feeling underneath as you tend to do that when you're a motoring geek , and motorcycling helps with that as it's so much more viceral - and I can make a reasonable assumption as to what kind of tyre I'm driving on blind . Obviously couldn't tell you exact brand but could tell if its a big premium like a Michelin or Conti or a mid range like a Uniroyal or a budget like a Nankang or WANLI or some ste.

I have a lot of car friends and I've driven a lot of their cars as well as plenty of cars on test drivers. Some people are just incredibly switched on to what's happening underneath. I'm sure many on this forum are same as me. It's certainly not special.

For example my GF switched from standard fit Conti Sport 5 (wasn't really a fan) to Avon Zv5 on our Leased Fiesta and I could tell within about 3 minutes of driving that they were different tyres as I didn't realise she had swapped them at the time. I had assumed they were a mid range as it was raining and they were running ride sooner than I was used to, but reasonably predictably and not as soon as a proper budget would - and guess what :-)


Why do you want to play with driving on the edge of grip on the road at all? How incredibly risky for you and others around you.

All it takes is for one miscalculation, or a silly mistake, or even something out of your control like some mud from a tractor, or an oncoming car at the wrong time, or some traffic around a blind bend to have a very serious accident and turn your life around for the worse...i wouldn't want anyone to have that!

I used to be a bit of a tit on the road late teens early 20s as many are... and then I started doing track days and completely calmed it down on the road because it's simply not worth the risk.

If you want to be playing around with limits do it on a closed environment. Track days are very cheap compared to a speeding ticket or a dangerous driving rap.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 5th July 12:06

[xjay1337]

300bhp/ton said:

I think you are getting mixed up.

High grip = semi slick
Lower grip = normal road tyre

Are you really trying to say fitting a normal road tyre is not acceptable?

I'm not getting mixed up.
But thanks for clarying.

Just FYI

Semi slick have a narrower window of operation than most UHP summer tyres.

So on the road at road speeds your UHP tyre will have more grip more of the time.

I had a set of Dunlop Direzzas on my Scirococo track car for a while.
My normal tyres were Vredestein Vorti at the time but I had a couple of trackdays over a 2 week period so I had them fitted and used them on the road for commuting and a little trip to the beach


On the road I remember I drove to Mcdonalds , it was around 10 degrees. I turned into a roundabout at normal speed around 3 miles from my house ..... and the back end came round.
ESP intervention meant I didn't really need to do anything but it was snappy and unexpected such sedate speeds.

Why? Because the tyres were cold, the road was cold, they werent up to their operating temperature.

They were the only set of tyres I had to be mindful of warming up properly. I also had AD08R fitted to the car. These were fitted only when :

1) the car was not being used every day as I had a daily
2) the car was only ever used in good weather

However I did get caught out a few times with the weather as you can imagine in the UK.
On the road in the wet they handled very much like a lower end tyre. My car had a very aggressive geo with nearly 3 degrees of negative camber set up and also corner weighted to put as much weight on the front axle as possible . So i generally had better wet grip than a "standard " car anyway but still you had to be mindful of it.

I also had to do a very very very wet Snetterton on them and it was horrible. Snetterton can be slippy when wet but this was ridiculous. My mate had PS4s and had zero issues! I was getting wheelspin in 5th! In a diesel!

If it was a car that was used mixed weather then I'd only ever fit PS4 (or your preferred choice of premium UHP tyre).
As I do with my M135i.
As I said I had a set of Cup2s and sold them. I'm not compromising day to day grip in wet and cold conditions for a few % extra performance on the track which the car spends 2% of it's total miles on.

So hence why I ask

Do you do trackdays reasonably regularly
Do you only ever plan on using the car in dry warm conditions.

Only if yes to both of those questions then look into buying an AD08R (not the newer RS. They're awful) or R888 or whatever semi slick you want.

Otherwise just put some normal UHP summer tyres on.

[xjay1337]

fastraxx said:

GravelBen said:

Some of these posters must have struggle to avoid seizures having to share roads with vans, buses, trucks, 4wds wearing mud tyres, older cars owned by people that can't afford to spend the value of the car on tyres, everything else with less grip than a modern car on UHP tyres... you know, most of the traffic on the road.

So much inferior grip, everyone must have died and gone to jail 5 times already.

To be fair 99% of people aren't wanting to find the limit of grip on the roads....so it's not too much of a problem.

I am certainly an advocate of banning proper bottom end budget tyres though. Like Wanli / Triagle / Luckyland etc. They are genuinely dangerous compared to even a mid range tyre. Compared to a Michelin (example only) up to 30m longer stopping distance in the wet from 70. That's a big crash.

[SidewaysSi]

xjay1337 said:

300bhp/ton said:

I think you are getting mixed up.

High grip = semi slick
Lower grip = normal road tyre

Are you really trying to say fitting a normal road tyre is not acceptable?

I'm not getting mixed up.
But thanks for clarying.

Just FYI

Semi slick have a narrower window of operation than most UHP summer tyres.

So on the road at road speeds your UHP tyre will have more grip more of the time.

I had a set of Dunlop Direzzas on my Scirococo track car for a while.
My normal tyres were Vredestein Vorti at the time but I had a couple of trackdays over a 2 week period so I had them fitted and used them on the road for commuting and a little trip to the beach


On the road I remember I drove to Mcdonalds , it was around 10 degrees. I turned into a roundabout at normal speed around 3 miles from my house ..... and the back end came round.
ESP intervention meant I didn't really need to do anything but it was snappy and unexpected such sedate speeds.

Why? Because the tyres were cold, the road was cold, they werent up to their operating temperature.

They were the only set of tyres I had to be mindful of warming up properly. I also had AD08R fitted to the car. These were fitted only when :

1) the car was not being used every day as I had a daily
2) the car was only ever used in good weather

However I did get caught out a few times with the weather as you can imagine in the UK.
On the road in the wet they handled very much like a lower end tyre. My car had a very aggressive geo with nearly 3 degrees of negative camber set up and also corner weighted to put as much weight on the front axle as possible . So i generally had better wet grip than a "standard " car anyway but still you had to be mindful of it.

I also had to do a very very very wet Snetterton on them and it was horrible. Snetterton can be slippy when wet but this was ridiculous. My mate had PS4s and had zero issues! I was getting wheelspin in 5th! In a diesel!

If it was a car that was used mixed weather then I'd only ever fit PS4 (or your preferred choice of premium UHP tyre).
As I do with my M135i.
As I said I had a set of Cup2s and sold them. I'm not compromising day to day grip in wet and cold conditions for a few % extra performance on the track which the car spends 2% of it's total miles on.

So hence why I ask

Do you do trackdays reasonably regularly
Do you only ever plan on using the car in dry warm conditions.

Only if yes to both of those questions then look into buying an AD08R (not the newer RS. They're awful) or R888 or whatever semi slick you want.

Otherwise just put some normal UHP summer tyres on.

Sounds like you need to learn to drive taking account of the tyres, conditions and your abilities.

And you don't do that many trackdays..

Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 5th July 12:42

[cerb4.5lee]

s m said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I have Michelin PS4 on the 370Z and I'd probably argue that they are a bit too grippy to be fair. However I have Michelin Primacy(similar to the GT86 I believe) on the Cooper S, and they don't have any grip at all and I'd actually prefer PS4 on that.

That’s interesting Lee

In the skidpad and steady state cornering tests the GT86 managed to pull around 1g on the standard tyres
Not up to levels of super cars but certainly as good as most hot hatch stuff of the time

If anything, I thought it was over-tyred for fun driving
The Jap base model had 195s on iirc

Cornering grip isn't actually that bad with the Primacy s m, but I don't like how easy the tyres spin up under acceleration. I think that the PS4 would be a big improvement in that regard.

[300bhp/ton]

xjay1337 said:

I'm not getting mixed up.
But thanks for clarying.

Just FYI

Semi slick have a narrower window of operation than most UHP summer tyres.

So on the road at road speeds your UHP tyre will have more grip more of the time.

I had a set of Dunlop Direzzas on my Scirococo track car for a while.
My normal tyres were Vredestein Vorti at the time but I had a couple of trackdays over a 2 week period so I had them fitted and used them on the road for commuting and a little trip to the beach


On the road I remember I drove to Mcdonalds , it was around 10 degrees. I turned into a roundabout at normal speed around 3 miles from my house ..... and the back end came round.
ESP intervention meant I didn't really need to do anything but it was snappy and unexpected such sedate speeds.

Why? Because the tyres were cold, the road was cold, they werent up to their operating temperature.

They were the only set of tyres I had to be mindful of warming up properly. I also had AD08R fitted to the car. These were fitted only when :

1) the car was not being used every day as I had a daily
2) the car was only ever used in good weather

However I did get caught out a few times with the weather as you can imagine in the UK.
On the road in the wet they handled very much like a lower end tyre. My car had a very aggressive geo with nearly 3 degrees of negative camber set up and also corner weighted to put as much weight on the front axle as possible . So i generally had better wet grip than a "standard " car anyway but still you had to be mindful of it.

I also had to do a very very very wet Snetterton on them and it was horrible. Snetterton can be slippy when wet but this was ridiculous. My mate had PS4s and had zero issues! I was getting wheelspin in 5th! In a diesel!

If it was a car that was used mixed weather then I'd only ever fit PS4 (or your preferred choice of premium UHP tyre).
As I do with my M135i.
As I said I had a set of Cup2s and sold them. I'm not compromising day to day grip in wet and cold conditions for a few % extra performance on the track which the car spends 2% of it's total miles on.

So hence why I ask

Do you do trackdays reasonably regularly
Do you only ever plan on using the car in dry warm conditions.

Only if yes to both of those questions then look into buying an AD08R (not the newer RS. They're awful) or R888 or whatever semi slick you want.

Otherwise just put some normal UHP summer tyres on.

I'm not really a track day goer. But thinking about getting into it more so.

Have done autosolos and gymkhanas (called targa rallies these days). Which are all held on closed courses.

Then just country lane driving. Mostly near'ish to home. Wouldn't take it if it was raining or expected heavy prolonged rain.

However as said, the Pilot Sport Cup tyres were pretty awesome all the time in all conditions.

If there was standing water or heavy run off. I'd simply pull over or slow down. No biggy tbh.

The car is quite modified. Only the doors and bootlid are standard. It is also currently geared for short course work. Tops out at about 115mph in 5th at around 5500-6000rpm. So on dual carriage ways I tend to cruise at around 60mph. Although I have a new diff and may regear as the gearing is probably too short for bigger tracks.

Need to remember, it's a classic car. The entire vehicle is setup to move about a heck of a lot more than a modern M car. Even if it was 100% standard. There is no ABS, no TCS, no ESP. It doesn't even have PAS!

I've also owned this car since 2001 and spent many many hours in it.

[DonkeyApple]

You’re problem with pulling over or slowing down as a tactic is that there aren’t many other road users left who naturally understand how cars such as yours work and so don’t expect you to be doing those things. Part of the compromise with setting your car up is that you have to consider the mindset of the average person who is behind you and how infrequently they, for example, adjust their stopping distances based on what the car in front of them is. It’s not 100% about how you can easily cope with a situation but how much you also have to factor in how little someone following you may cope.

[braddo]

There is some sanctimonious bullst being posted on this thread. Mainly by one person.

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

You’re problem with pulling over or slowing down as a tactic is that there aren’t many other road users left who naturally understand how cars such as yours work and so don’t expect you to be doing those things. Part of the compromise with setting your car up is that you have to consider the mindset of the average person who is behind you and how infrequently they, for example, adjust their stopping distances based on what the car in front of them is. It’s not 100% about how you can easily cope with a situation but how much you also have to factor in how little someone following you may cope.

Isn't this true of all traffic at all times though? I drive various vehicles on the roads, some stop very well. Some much less so. And that's in the dry.