RE: Ineos Grenadier production pushed back

[Krikkit]

jeremy996 said:

My LR110 needs another rebuild, 10 years and 200,000 miles after the last one and I do not think I have the stamina for another one...... SNIP

Why not go for the new Defender? It's available now, will be comfier, cheaper to run and more practical for normal folk than the Grenadier.

[jeremy996]

Krikkit said:

Why not go for the new Defender? It's available now, will be comfier, cheaper to run and more practical for normal folk than the Grenadier.

I know 4 people with them and none of them have been fault free. Our local dealer is less than co-operative with warranty work, the dealers further afield are not reported any better. There are issues with access to service data and spare parts; the OBD system is too proprietary, the media system is still glitchy, (I just want a power amp, speakers and an aux socket or Bluetooth link, an option that is not available),

I do not expect it to be working in 20 years time, nor do I think it is reasonable to expect the dealer network to provide anything at that point, (seeing as spares need to only be available for 10 years after the end of build, currently). Unless it goes cult, it will be disposable.

My LR110 and LR90 are old and tired; they can be rebuilt again but I don't think i want to do it again. I have long said they are more like pets than vehicles, but I can sell them to be someone else's rebuild without taking too much of a bath.

A Defender 90 Hardtop to suit is £47,102 OTR; it is more than I want to spend on a vehicle I consider to be too clever for its own good. A Grenadier at about the same cost will do for me; the engine, axles and gearbox are known quantities, I'd hope Grenadier can make a better stab at service than JLR and if they do go down the open-source route I will be happy. I can wait to 2022.

Edited by jeremy996 on Friday 14th May 15:34

[chelme]

braddo said:

forzaminardi said:

Exactly. He helped perpetuate a fraud which will disadvantage millions of Brits for generations, all for his personal gain. Anyway, enough politics, on to the car. It's sh*t. Over and out.

Lol

[sisu]

Considering they started with a blank canvas this is 20 years out of date.
This is where work trucks are now where you have a built in 240v supply with capacity to work for hours you don't need a generator. This is what people want from an off road vehicle now.

[Jon_S_Rally]

F20CN16 said:

It's called bad marketing then. They aren't out there though. The car isn't on sale. The car can't be bought for another 15 months. By the time it's available to buy lots of people will be tired of the seeing the product. All of that initial momentum upon the reveal last July is lost now. If this goes on sale next July it'll be with a whimper.

Edited by F20CN16 on Thursday 13th May 14:09

Is it? Well, for one thing, they probably didn't expect a global pandemic to delay them as it has. But, beyond that, releasing images early is nothing new. You don't just do one press release and then start selling a product anymore. By dragging it out over a longer period, they are trying to build brand awareness. You might be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that other people will.

sisu said:

Considering they started with a blank canvas this is 20 years out of date.
This is where work trucks are now where you have a built in 240v supply with capacity to work for hours you don't need a generator. This is what people want from an off road vehicle now.

Has the full spec and options list been released? Do you know if things like above are not available?

[anonymous-user]

Jon_S_Rally said:

Is it? Well, for one thing, they probably didn't expect a global pandemic to delay them as it has. But, beyond that, releasing images early is nothing new. You don't just do one press release and then start selling a product anymore. By dragging it out over a longer period, they are trying to build brand awareness. You might be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that other people will.

The reveal was 4 months after the WHO (finally) decided it was a pandemic. Should have been pretty clear by that point. Manufacturers do drag out launches yes, but this was a full reveal of the exterior which doesn’t keep people interested like a drip feed of smaller reveals you commonly get. Remember the Supra launch? Little bit at a time.

[Numeric]

jeremy996 said:

Krikkit said:

Why not go for the new Defender? It's available now, will be comfier, cheaper to run and more practical for normal folk than the Grenadier.

I know 4 people with them and none of them have been fault free. Our local dealer is less than co-operative with warranty work, the dealers further afield are not reported any better. There are issues with access to service data and spare parts; the OBD system is too proprietary, the media system is still glitchy, (I just want a power amp, speakers and an aux socket or Bluetooth link, an option that is not available),

I do not expect it to be working in 20 years time, nor do I think it is reasonable to expect the dealer network to provide anything at that point, (seeing as spares need to only be available for 10 years after the end of build, currently). Unless it goes cult, it will disposable.

My LR110 and LR90 are old and tired; they can be rebuilt again but I don't think i want to do it again. I have long said they are more like pets than vehicles, but I can sell them to be someone else's rebuild without taking too much of a bath.

A Defender 90 Hardtop to suit is £47,102 OTR; it is more than I want to spend on a vehicle I consider to be too clever for its own good. A Grenadier at about the same cost will do for me; the engine, axles and gearbox are known quantities, I'd hope Grenadier can make a better stab at service than JLR and if they do go down the open-source route I will be happy. I can wait to 2022.

I think you make good points and people are slightly missing the point. For most this vehicle will be too much like hard-work so the new Defender was wisely designed to not meet this market and is now built in Slovakia by an Indian company, so as far as I can see offers little more ability to be considered British if that is your big thing than this.

This is a utility vehicle - a truck.

My question to the poster would be though why not a Hilux? I have researched this area (I sometimes come over all pick up truck fancier for NO good reason) and they or something similar seems the obvious compromise and reputational reliability comes too (no idea if in reality it is all that). Is it just the familiarity to the old Land Rover that appeals or something else?

[Lester H]

The thread set me looking at Land Rover history. Looking at it afresh after 20 years, isn’t the Discovery1 a good looker? We know on here about the unreliability but a nice one in green with cream steel wheels......Another thread is running, complaining how blobby and bloated 4x4s have become. Early Disco looks handsome in its industrial way.

Edited by Lester H on Friday 14th May 09:22

[gizlaroc]

forzaminardi said:

Exactly. He helped perpetuate a fraud which will disadvantage millions of Brits for generations, all for his personal gain. Anyway, enough politics, on to the car. It's sh*t. Over and out.

Have a word with yourself.

[bmv6197]

So in summary then:

- man with lots of money buys into winning F1 team and it is still winning
- same man with lots of money buys into non-winning AC sailing team, and it is still not winning
- that same man again laments the demise of a rugged British-built 4x4 icon, and there still won’t be a rugged British-built 4x4
- lots-of-money-man vows to innovate and build a modern version of a rugged British 4x4 and ends up hitting “107% magnification” on a photocopy of a LR Defender to the point a) it looks like a gangly Chinese-copy of a Defender and b) half the people reading this can’t work out if it’s a new vehicle or a facelift of the original Defender
- said man supports Brexit as a way of securing Britain’s future, then proceeds to support France’s future

There’s a theme here: Doesn’t do what he says. Doesn’t make a positive difference. Still has lots of money...

Reality is a cruel mistress...

Edited by bmv6197 on Friday 14th May 02:38

[sisu]

Jon_S_Rally said:

F20CN16 said:

It's called bad marketing then. They aren't out there though. The car isn't on sale. The car can't be bought for another 15 months. By the time it's available to buy lots of people will be tired of the seeing the product. All of that initial momentum upon the reveal last July is lost now. If this goes on sale next July it'll be with a whimper.

Edited by F20CN16 on Thursday 13th May 14:09

Is it? Well, for one thing, they probably didn't expect a global pandemic to delay them as it has. But, beyond that, releasing images early is nothing new. You don't just do one press release and then start selling a product anymore. By dragging it out over a longer period, they are trying to build brand awareness. You might be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that other peopkle will.

sisu said:

Considering they started with a blank canvas this is 20 years out of date.
This is where work trucks are now where you have a built in 240v supply with capacity to work for hours you don't need a generator. This is what people want from an off road vehicle now.

Has the full spec and options list been released? Do you know if things like above are not available?

This is being launched now, you can order it today. They sold 750,000 F150s last year and although you would be a douch for buying one in Britain. The reality is that they will make a Ranger sized version soon.

[LooneyTunes]

jeremy996 said:

Krikkit said:

Why not go for the new Defender? It's available now, will be comfier, cheaper to run and more practical for normal folk than the Grenadier.

I know 4 people with them and none of them have been fault free. Our local dealer is less than co-operative with warranty work, the dealers further afield are not reported any better. There are issues with access to service data and spare parts; the OBD system is too proprietary, the media system is still glitchy, (I just want a power amp, speakers and an aux socket or Bluetooth link, an option that is not available),

I do not expect it to be working in 20 years time, nor do I think it is reasonable to expect the dealer network to provide anything at that point, (seeing as spares need to only be available for 10 years after the end of build, currently). Unless it goes cult, it will disposable.

My LR110 and LR90 are old and tired; they can be rebuilt again but I don't think i want to do it again. I have long said they are more like pets than vehicles, but I can sell them to be someone else's rebuild without taking too much of a bath.

A Defender 90 Hardtop to suit is £47,102 OTR; it is more than I want to spend on a vehicle I consider to be too clever for its own good. A Grenadier at about the same cost will do for me; the engine, axles and gearbox are known quantities, I'd hope Grenadier can make a better stab at service than JLR and if they do go down the open-source route I will be happy. I can wait to 2022.

Or buy a recent “old” defender. Judging by the prices there is still demand for these vs the new defender. Probably cost less in depreciation than a grenadier too.

Personally I find it hard to believe that the grenadier will be a success, mainly due to parts/service. It is going to take a serious leap of faith for people to part with their money when the Japanese alternatives are well proven and have the infrastructure behind them.

[Maldini35]

Jon_S_Rally said:

F20CN16 said:

It's called bad marketing then. They aren't out there though. The car isn't on sale. The car can't be bought for another 15 months. By the time it's available to buy lots of people will be tired of the seeing the product. All of that initial momentum upon the reveal last July is lost now. If this goes on sale next July it'll be with a whimper.

Edited by F20CN16 on Thursday 13th May 14:09

Is it? Well, for one thing, they probably didn't expect a global pandemic to delay them as it has. But, beyond that, releasing images early is nothing new. You don't just do one press release and then start selling a product anymore. By dragging it out over a longer period, they are trying to build brand awareness. You might be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that other people will.

Nope - it’s bad marketing
Bored of it 18 months before it’s available.
That’s not good.
Not helped by COVID of course.

Heap on some bad feeling about production out of the UK (rightly or wrongly), polarising (charmless?) exterior design, complicated powertrains and a potentially higher purchase price than first thought and it looks like a tough sell.

Edited by Maldini35 on Friday 14th May 09:33

[Billy_Whizzzz]

chelme said:

braddo said:

forzaminardi said:

Exactly. He helped perpetuate a fraud which will disadvantage millions of Brits for generations, all for his personal gain. Anyway, enough politics, on to the car. It's sh*t. Over and out.

Lol

Quite right. Brexit voting idiots screwing the country for everyone for generations.

[Jon_S_Rally]

sisu said:

This is being launched now, you can order it today. They sold 750,000 F150s last year and although you would be a douch for buying one in Britain. The reality is that they will make a Ranger sized version soon.

But how do you know that the Grenadier won't have such options available? Given that it is being aimed very much at the utility/commercial user, I imagine it will have numerous such options in terms of power outlets and those sort of things.

The F-150 is something of an odd case in a way, as the Americans are in love with it, as trucks are part of their culture. Would its sales translate outside of the US? I'm not so sure about that.

A Ranger-sized version of what? The F-150? Wouldn't that just be a Ranger, which you can already buy in North America?

Maldini35 said:

Nope - it’s bad marketing
Bored of it 18 months before it’s available.
That’s not good.
Not helped by COVID of course.

Heap on some bad feeling about production out of the UK (rightly or wrongly), polarising (charmless?) exterior design, complicated powertrains and a potentially higher purchase price than first thought and it looks like a tough sell.

Just because you're bored of it, does that mean that everyone else is? Or are you just assuming that because you aren't interested, and because you have bad feeling towards it?

I'm certainly not saying it's definitely going to be a success, because it is entering an extremely challenging segment, but most of the "bad marketing" or "it's going to fail" talk on here is driven by personal opinion, or ill feeling towards the project.

Billy_Whizzzz said:

Quite right. Brexit voting idiots screwing the country for everyone for generations.

I know right? How dare people have an opinion and exercise their right to self-determination. What absolute scum.

If the last year or so has shown us anything, it's that there is much more to the world than just the EU or the UK's membership of it.

[anonymous-user]

Jon_S_Rally said:

But how do you know that the Grenadier won't have such options available? Given that it is being aimed very much at the utility/commercial user, I imagine it will have numerous such options in terms of power outlets and those sort of things.

er, the F150 power options available are as a direct result of it being a hybrid now! When you've got a socking great battery, with a 400v DC link, adding a "AC utilities" power output feature is not a costly or difficult exercise.

If you only have an ICE, then its a non starter because even 3kW, enough for a toaster or kettle, or single power tool, is >250 amps at 12v, and would require an enourmous alternator and primary battery.

The engineering team on the new F150 have said "ok, we've got a powerful battery we need to push thecar along, but what else could we do with it" They have looked FORWARD to what people might want to do in future. This is diametrically opposite the ethos of the Grenadire, where they have looked BACK and asked "what did people do in the past".......

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 14th May 11:26

[thewarlock]

Jon_S_Rally said:

sisu said:

This is being launched now, you can order it today. They sold 750,000 F150s last year and although you would be a douch for buying one in Britain. The reality is that they will make a Ranger sized version soon.

But how do you know that the Grenadier won't have such options available? Given that it is being aimed very much at the utility/commercial user, I imagine it will have numerous such options in terms of power outlets and those sort of things.

The F-150 is something of an odd case in a way, as the Americans are in love with it, as trucks are part of their culture. Would its sales translate outside of the US? I'm not so sure about that.

Ford have sold more F150s in Canada, over the last decade, than Land Rover have sold of any model, worldwide, in the same time frame. A lot more.

LR sold 17k Defenders worldwide in 2013. Ford sold 122k F150s in Canada alone.

[jeremy996]

Numeric said:

Snip

This is a utility vehicle - a truck.

My question to the poster would be though why not a Hilux? I have researched this area (I sometimes come over all pick up truck fancier for NO good reason) and they or something similar seems the obvious compromise and reputational reliability comes too (no idea if in reality it is all that).

Snip

Just had a look at a Hilux; just too damn big. That also goes for the Ford Ranger, L200, Amarok etc. The F-150 is so laughably large for the UK, I'm not surprised it is not expected to be sold here.

I've had my Defenders a long time, buying a newer (old) one would be crazy; the prices are just ridiculous and I have a very clear idea of their weaknesses. I'm happy to wait and see what the Grenadier is like.

[sisu]

The 7.5kw powerboost is just a $750 option. It will power your house, not just a fridge and a tablet.. It will charge a Tesla in 3 hours.
As a work vehicle or utility tool this is the sort of thing that you want, it can't get nicked or lost and its the same space as the current one.
All of the coke fuelled ideas about this Ieminos Grenadier being a great UN vehicle wouldnt be out of place in the Lamborghini LM002 bonga bonga party back in the 80s.

[Jon_S_Rally]

Max_Torque said:

er, the F150 power options available are as a direct result of it being a hybrid now! When you've got a socking great battery, with a 400v DC link, adding a "AC utilities" power output feature is not a costly or difficult exercise.

If you only have an ICE, then its a non starter because even 3kW, enough for a toaster or kettle, or single power tool, is >250 amps at 12v, and would require an enourmous alternator and primary battery.

The engineering team on the new F150 have said "ok, we've got a powerful battery we need to push thecar along, but what else could we do with it" They have looked FORWARD to what people might want to do in future. This is diametrically opposite the ethos of the Grenadire, where they have looked BACK and asked "what did people do in the past".......

Edited by Max_Torque on Friday 14th May 11:26

I assume you have sat in Ineos design meetings to know who is looking forward and who is looking back then? Or is that just an assumption based on your own bias?

Again, we don't know what options and equipment will be available on the car. Will it immediately have a 250V output? Based on the current engine, perhaps not, but that's hardly going to determine the product's success or failure, is it? Especially when the F150 isn't sold globally, so isn't a rival for the Grenadier in many markets.

thewarlock said:

Ford have sold more F150s in Canada, over the last decade, than Land Rover have sold of any model, worldwide, in the same time frame. A lot more.

LR sold 17k Defenders worldwide in 2013. Ford sold 122k F150s in Canada alone.

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the Grenadier? It's not a Land Rover? And an F-150 isn't really aimed at the same buyers as a Land Rover. One is a cheap pick-up, the other is a lifestyle SUV that used to be a utility 4x4.

More to the point, does it actually matter if it outsells any of its rivals? Ineos will have a sales target in order for them to make a profit. That's the number they will care about, not how many rednecks by an F-150, or how many posh tts by a Defender.