RE: KTM X-Bow Production Halted
Discussion
As one of the (few) genuine UK buyers of an X-Bow a few random thoughts.
Yes much much too expensive although the lucky few of us who ordered pre launch did get a fair bit of discount. Very disapointed that the price crept up to such a ridiculous level post production. I would be much happier with more cars on the road. KTM has more dealers than customers! The Euro didn't do them any favours either. And yes I do have a few other toys in the fleet.
After 6000 odd miles in mine it can be bloody hard work especially on the motorway in the pissing rain. However it is beautifully screwed together, very comfy and very well engineered. Still sounds crap though! But on a nice day it is absolutly the best fun on 4 wheels on the road and that will do for me.
Looks are totally subjective and I love it to bits, I still get a bit stiff every time I open the garage door! But fully understand why people might hate it. I have a totally unreasonable hatred of Atoms, each to his own, and at 186CM tall find Caterhams just bloody uncomfortable. Even the longer ones. The attention you get on the road is amazing it is impossible to drive anywhere without the mobile phone paparazzi going spare. Something of a double edge sword this! So far not one person has "flipped the bird" at us so better than a ferrari, porsche etc in my experience.
On the track it is just about quick enough to justify some of the price. On Toyos and stiffened up a bit (IE cheap mods) they are on a par with the quickest porsche, atoms etc. With more power they are very quick but Opps thats another £5K or so just gone west! very hard to justify. However the faster you go the more buffeting you get which rather spoils the fun. Not sure a bigger screen would do much for the buffeting as most of it comes from the cockpit sides where the radiators are. As far as the 'ring goes it is much too slow in the very fast bits to set a quick time, although its the fastest car I have ever driven through the carosel!
So yes flawed but great fun and the world would be a blander place without it. Hope it makes it back in Jan 2010.
Yes much much too expensive although the lucky few of us who ordered pre launch did get a fair bit of discount. Very disapointed that the price crept up to such a ridiculous level post production. I would be much happier with more cars on the road. KTM has more dealers than customers! The Euro didn't do them any favours either. And yes I do have a few other toys in the fleet.
After 6000 odd miles in mine it can be bloody hard work especially on the motorway in the pissing rain. However it is beautifully screwed together, very comfy and very well engineered. Still sounds crap though! But on a nice day it is absolutly the best fun on 4 wheels on the road and that will do for me.
Looks are totally subjective and I love it to bits, I still get a bit stiff every time I open the garage door! But fully understand why people might hate it. I have a totally unreasonable hatred of Atoms, each to his own, and at 186CM tall find Caterhams just bloody uncomfortable. Even the longer ones. The attention you get on the road is amazing it is impossible to drive anywhere without the mobile phone paparazzi going spare. Something of a double edge sword this! So far not one person has "flipped the bird" at us so better than a ferrari, porsche etc in my experience.
On the track it is just about quick enough to justify some of the price. On Toyos and stiffened up a bit (IE cheap mods) they are on a par with the quickest porsche, atoms etc. With more power they are very quick but Opps thats another £5K or so just gone west! very hard to justify. However the faster you go the more buffeting you get which rather spoils the fun. Not sure a bigger screen would do much for the buffeting as most of it comes from the cockpit sides where the radiators are. As far as the 'ring goes it is much too slow in the very fast bits to set a quick time, although its the fastest car I have ever driven through the carosel!
So yes flawed but great fun and the world would be a blander place without it. Hope it makes it back in Jan 2010.
Interesting and saddening thread. Regardless of personal preferences and allegiances, as devout car lovers, such news (whether slightly exaggerated or not) is always disappointing.
Speaking personally, when the X-Bow was launched I was in the market for such a car and had just put a deposit on an Atom 3. Whilst waiting patiently in the queue for the car, I did consider pulling my order and swapping to KTM… however, a number of things stopped me from doing so including…..
The price kept going up and quickly went to a level which pitted it against some very serious and well established machinery….. The options list put many “necessary” bits as expensive options meaning a minimum spec was more costly…. Concerns over carbon fibre UV stability…. Not the power to weight ratio originally expected (i.e. too heavy, not enough grunt)…. Lack of willingness to allow test drives…. Concern that the slightest knock to any extremity would result in some very expensive (and lengthy) repairs…. Poor media reviews…. Absolute size of it!
I think the biggest issues with the KTM are size, power to weight ratio, uninspiring handling and carbon concerns. Looks wise, I think it’s extremely aggressive and looks out of this world, although it’s a tad “busy” and about 2 sizes too big… maybe the designer had his CAD screen on 120% magnification when KTM signed it off, I’m not sure.
I really hope the remaining 80 unsold cars shift, although I suspect with the factory on a break, that means you’ll be limited to what spec you can take. That said, maybe there’s a discount to be had! In everything except price (+20% for KTM), you have to compare it to the Atom, it really is the only direct rival. Ariel’s waiting list is currently around the 18mth mark, which suggests the market for extreme cars isn’t exactly on it’s bottom.
I may have been tempted to the other side, but I certainly hope the X-Bow doesn’t become a museum piece just yet.
Speaking personally, when the X-Bow was launched I was in the market for such a car and had just put a deposit on an Atom 3. Whilst waiting patiently in the queue for the car, I did consider pulling my order and swapping to KTM… however, a number of things stopped me from doing so including…..
The price kept going up and quickly went to a level which pitted it against some very serious and well established machinery….. The options list put many “necessary” bits as expensive options meaning a minimum spec was more costly…. Concerns over carbon fibre UV stability…. Not the power to weight ratio originally expected (i.e. too heavy, not enough grunt)…. Lack of willingness to allow test drives…. Concern that the slightest knock to any extremity would result in some very expensive (and lengthy) repairs…. Poor media reviews…. Absolute size of it!
I think the biggest issues with the KTM are size, power to weight ratio, uninspiring handling and carbon concerns. Looks wise, I think it’s extremely aggressive and looks out of this world, although it’s a tad “busy” and about 2 sizes too big… maybe the designer had his CAD screen on 120% magnification when KTM signed it off, I’m not sure.
I really hope the remaining 80 unsold cars shift, although I suspect with the factory on a break, that means you’ll be limited to what spec you can take. That said, maybe there’s a discount to be had! In everything except price (+20% for KTM), you have to compare it to the Atom, it really is the only direct rival. Ariel’s waiting list is currently around the 18mth mark, which suggests the market for extreme cars isn’t exactly on it’s bottom.
I may have been tempted to the other side, but I certainly hope the X-Bow doesn’t become a museum piece just yet.
Last September, myself and pal collected the first two UK X-Bow's from the factory in Southern Austria. We drove the scenic route via Italy and France and 1,500 miles or so later arrived back in the UK. In almost a year since then we've racked up many more miles and every one of them has been a delight.
Interesting to read the comments on here. Agree with the view that KTM have set the price too high. In KTM's defence the car is beautifully designed and built from expensive, high quality materials - it's a different proposition from the likes of Lotus, Atom or Caterham - but still it's 20% too expensive. Also agree that the sales and marketing has not been good enough. Asking people to pay for test drives is not a good strategy.
Disagree with the negative remarks (most from people who have never driven the car) regarding performance and handling. Yes the standard car is too soft for some tastes, however a few simple, low cost mods (sticky tyres, exhaust and a turbo upgrade) effect a dramatic transformation. The chassis is ultra safe/strong, extremely light and the high levels of downforce it generates endow the car with sensational dynamics.
On track it's significantly quicker than Atom's, 2-11's, GT3's and pretty much anything else with number plates - Radical pace, Porsche reliability/durability, Caterham running costs and remains very usable as a road car.
For those of us who enjoy driving on track the X-Bow makes a lot of sense. Half the weight of a typical GT car, quicker over a lap, more fun to drive, more exclusive and less expensive than most and much lower running costs.
Best car I've ever owned. Highly recommended.
Interesting to read the comments on here. Agree with the view that KTM have set the price too high. In KTM's defence the car is beautifully designed and built from expensive, high quality materials - it's a different proposition from the likes of Lotus, Atom or Caterham - but still it's 20% too expensive. Also agree that the sales and marketing has not been good enough. Asking people to pay for test drives is not a good strategy.
Disagree with the negative remarks (most from people who have never driven the car) regarding performance and handling. Yes the standard car is too soft for some tastes, however a few simple, low cost mods (sticky tyres, exhaust and a turbo upgrade) effect a dramatic transformation. The chassis is ultra safe/strong, extremely light and the high levels of downforce it generates endow the car with sensational dynamics.
On track it's significantly quicker than Atom's, 2-11's, GT3's and pretty much anything else with number plates - Radical pace, Porsche reliability/durability, Caterham running costs and remains very usable as a road car.
For those of us who enjoy driving on track the X-Bow makes a lot of sense. Half the weight of a typical GT car, quicker over a lap, more fun to drive, more exclusive and less expensive than most and much lower running costs.
Best car I've ever owned. Highly recommended.
Edited by ScottL on Wednesday 26th August 00:53
Too high a price; too many competitors at a lower price- in the UK. There are plenty of people in the US with more money than sense, plus there isn't as much competition. You'd think they could find a market there. I've seen three Atoms and love them, and if they can be registered here, there shouldn't be a problem for KTM. Personally, I love the styling of the X-Bow, though it surely is subjective, I hope they can hang on. If not, they can always focus on making top notch MX bikes and supermotards.
356Speedster said:
, you have to compare it to the Atom, it really is the only direct rival. Ariel’s waiting list is currently around the 18mth mark, which suggests the market for extreme cars isn’t exactly on it’s bottom.
Also Lotus 2-11 as stated throughout this tread. Again they are also selling fairly well I understandStu_00 said:
356Speedster said:
, you have to compare it to the Atom, it really is the only direct rival. Ariel’s waiting list is currently around the 18mth mark, which suggests the market for extreme cars isn’t exactly on it’s bottom.
Also Lotus 2-11 as stated throughout this tread. Again they are also selling fairly well I understandInteresting to hear comments from the guys that have got them and great to know there's happy owners out there extoling their virtues
In response tho', the sweeping statements about it being quicker than just about everything with a number plate: the standard car is not... it's quicker than a lot of things, but out of the box it's not quite on the pace... Just looking at EVO, the Atom 3 is 6th around Bedford with a time of 1:21.5 and the R500 above it on 1:20.2, whereas the X-Bow is 16th on a 1:25. For Comparisson, the 340R sits neatly between the two of them.I'm sure that with a series of upgrades (yet more money to make it do what it should have done from day one) it can be faster, but upgrade the others and one would expect them to go faster still, so that's hardly a fair comparisson.
As I said, unfortunately I haven't driven one (if I'd paid £400 for a test drive in all the cars I am interested in buying, I'd be broke!), but know folks who have and their thoughts echo those already mentioned around handling & performance.
I think it's a great car and the world is a better place for having it around, but for KTM, it's a great opportunity missed. They really should have addressed some of the common thoughts expressed on this thread and looked better at their target market. If they'd put the upgrades the 2 owners above mentioned on at std, it might have helped... although then the price would be 5-10K higher by the sounds of it!
Edited by 356Speedster on Tuesday 25th August 08:27
It's inexpensive and easy to add another 100bhp in a X-Bow. Emphatically not the case with Caterhams, Atoms, 2-11's and so on.
Also bear in mind in regards to magazine lap times, the standard car comes on road tyres not track rubber with a soft setup. Hence some of the mediocre lap times published. Be in no doubt though, with sticky rubber, dampers/ride height setup for the track and another 100bhp it blitzes the competition. The secret is the high levels of downforce the chassis (designed by Dallara) generates that enable it to corner at surreal speeds
Check out this months Top Gear magazine or results from June's Sport Auto Tuner GP for more representative lap times.
Also bear in mind in regards to magazine lap times, the standard car comes on road tyres not track rubber with a soft setup. Hence some of the mediocre lap times published. Be in no doubt though, with sticky rubber, dampers/ride height setup for the track and another 100bhp it blitzes the competition. The secret is the high levels of downforce the chassis (designed by Dallara) generates that enable it to corner at surreal speeds
Check out this months Top Gear magazine or results from June's Sport Auto Tuner GP for more representative lap times.
ScottL said:
It's inexpensive and easy to add another 100bhp in a X-Bow. Emphatically not the case with Caterhams, Atoms, 2-11's and so on.
Also bear in mind in regards to magazine lap times, the standard car comes on road tyres not track rubber with a soft setup. Hence some of the mediocre lap times published. Be in no doubt though, with sticky rubber, dampers/ride height setup for the track and another 100bhp it blitzes the competition. The secret is the high levels of downforce the chassis (designed by Dallara) generates that enable it to corner at surreal speeds
Check out this months Top Gear magazine or results from June's Sport Auto Tuner GP for more representative lap times.
Interesting as I read the 300bhp upgrade is 8,700euros... £1,000 worth of tuning on the original VAG turbo is not recommended and you really should change the turbo if you want 300bhp+. A similar £5K pushes the Atom over 400bhp (a few guys have done this with Rotrex 'chargers or BB turbos and they make the std 300bhp car look tame!) and the factory offer an aero kit too, which has been re-designed and does now produce a tangiable benfit... I believe the 2-11 is a better handling car out of the box, but I'm not sure of it's tuning potential..Also bear in mind in regards to magazine lap times, the standard car comes on road tyres not track rubber with a soft setup. Hence some of the mediocre lap times published. Be in no doubt though, with sticky rubber, dampers/ride height setup for the track and another 100bhp it blitzes the competition. The secret is the high levels of downforce the chassis (designed by Dallara) generates that enable it to corner at surreal speeds
Check out this months Top Gear magazine or results from June's Sport Auto Tuner GP for more representative lap times.
EVO's laptimes are all set on road tyres, using the cars suppied and any inherant tuning available as std (e.g. adj brake bias, adj damping, tyre pressures).. granted Ariel / Caterham / Lotus use a more agressive tyre than the KTM uses out of the box, but they're still hardley "Michelin Energy" spec!
Please don't get defensive, as i've said I really do like the X-Bow, but out of the box, KTM gets a B "should have tried harder". Against the cheaper competition it's a little way behind. Tuning one car to make it as good as the base competition and overcome it's weaknesses isn't comparing apples with apples, as by that rationale, tuning the others would just move them on too.
Edited by 356Speedster on Tuesday 25th August 09:37
Seems extraordinary that still, so many people go in to specialist car production , evidently without researching the market, or even using common sense about what they are offering in comparison with competition already on sale before setting a price and considering their ability to build within it.
The Dutch Carver car company whose 3 wheel tilting vehicle also reached eye watering price levels especially in the UK with a devalued pound went in to bunkruptcy a few weeks ago.
The Dutch Carver car company whose 3 wheel tilting vehicle also reached eye watering price levels especially in the UK with a devalued pound went in to bunkruptcy a few weeks ago.
RTH said:
The Dutch Carver car company whose 3 wheel tilting vehicle also reached eye watering price levels especially in the UK with a devalued pound went in to bunkruptcy a few weeks ago.
That's a shame, I liked those. Having said that I would never have bought one, they were the kind of thing you wanted other people to buy (which might explain why they went bust).If the economy doesn't hold on to its recent improvement I think some of the smaller supercar firms will be in trouble
ScottL said:
Check out this months Top Gear magazine or results from June's Sport Auto Tuner GP for more representative lap times ]
1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.
Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion
Edited by Noger on Tuesday 25th August 10:29
Fittster said:
That's a shame, I liked those. Having said that I would never have bought one, they were the kind of thing you wanted other people to buy (which might explain why they went bust).
If the economy doesn't hold on to its recent improvement I think some of the smaller supercar firms will be in trouble
+1If the economy doesn't hold on to its recent improvement I think some of the smaller supercar firms will be in trouble
Shame to say it, tho'.
Noger said:
1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.
Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.
Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.
Just for comparison..... Top Gear Power Laps. Caterham R500 1:17.9. Stunning!!Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.
Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.
Edited by 356Speedster on Tuesday 25th August 10:42
356Speedster said:
Noger said:
1:23.1 from the Stig. Same as the GT3.
Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.
Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.
Just for comparison..... Top Gear Power Laps. Caterham R500 1:17.9. Stunning!!Which is very quick. But hardly 1:17.9.
Fail to see any blitzing. Just excuses and delusion.
Edited by 356Speedster on Tuesday 25th August 10:42
If you're going to make an 'extreme' car it needs to have 'extreme' performance out of the box.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff