Brace before impact...!
Discussion
My dear departed uncle used to have a seatbelt factory in Cheshire making seatbelts for a lot of car maunfacturers, it's amazing watching the machine that used to snap seatbelts to see their ultimate strength. As a small lad I used to cringe until it finally went bang, I'm sure he only showed me it as some sort of northern real men thing. Git.
Anyhow, he used to tell me how they did tests on multipoint harnesses rather than the traditional 3 point chest and lap and when they did that the dummies heads used to come off, so they had to get stronger dummies. Here the multi point harness worked worse because it was so good it put more strain on the bit still flapping about, ie the head. Of course racing drivers have a very small cockpit before hitting the car with their body, so they need it, now HANS devices have sorted out the head as well.
In a normal car you want to be restrained just enough to avoid hitting the car with any point of your body whilst being restrained at the lowest amount of transitional g force to accomplish that goal. Hence why in a Caterham you might trade off high G's whilst being restrained compared to a Ford C-Max occupant who has more room to have their systems, seat belt and air bags etc, giving them a more relaxed crash experience (RCE)
So given the artificial mechanical needs how can human intervention help these systems, or to get back to the original poster, brace or floppy? Well you want to avoid accelerations/g then brace would always be better in this case, muscles will at least take some of the initial change of g out and even if it does not save your life you have tried to assist your mechanical systems.
If we look at what an ejecting fighter pilot has to do then it would seem that tucking ones extremities in and putting the head back against the headrest does seem ideal, make your surface area uptight against your seat away from the outside "environment" as much as possible.
Last time I rolled a car my only injury was to my right arm that had been flying around and slapped the driver window as the physics turned me into a ragdoll. I couldn't do the brace though because just before I was still trying to unwind the opposite lock, cough
.
Which brings back the really big question in all this, do you actually have time to think about brace or floppy in a really big accident? I've rolled cars and driven them into parked cars at over 70 (oops) and the only thing I have ever managed to do at that point mentally is say
"Oh b
ks"
during the impact and then
"This is not going to drive home, if only I could turn back the hands of time by about 3 minutes."
Rather than worrying about brace or floppy it's probably better to work out how best to phrase that phone call conversation for the person who has put up with your expensive hobby all these years. I'd recommend
"Hi gorgeous, do you remember that time I had the motorbike and I had that small prang and you had to visit me in hospital for 6 months? Well thanks to me getting this car and crashing it ... you won't have to ! That was such a good idea of yours, now you can meet the AA man as well! Get the tea on, see you soon, love you always."
Andy
Anyhow, he used to tell me how they did tests on multipoint harnesses rather than the traditional 3 point chest and lap and when they did that the dummies heads used to come off, so they had to get stronger dummies. Here the multi point harness worked worse because it was so good it put more strain on the bit still flapping about, ie the head. Of course racing drivers have a very small cockpit before hitting the car with their body, so they need it, now HANS devices have sorted out the head as well.
In a normal car you want to be restrained just enough to avoid hitting the car with any point of your body whilst being restrained at the lowest amount of transitional g force to accomplish that goal. Hence why in a Caterham you might trade off high G's whilst being restrained compared to a Ford C-Max occupant who has more room to have their systems, seat belt and air bags etc, giving them a more relaxed crash experience (RCE)
So given the artificial mechanical needs how can human intervention help these systems, or to get back to the original poster, brace or floppy? Well you want to avoid accelerations/g then brace would always be better in this case, muscles will at least take some of the initial change of g out and even if it does not save your life you have tried to assist your mechanical systems.
If we look at what an ejecting fighter pilot has to do then it would seem that tucking ones extremities in and putting the head back against the headrest does seem ideal, make your surface area uptight against your seat away from the outside "environment" as much as possible.
Last time I rolled a car my only injury was to my right arm that had been flying around and slapped the driver window as the physics turned me into a ragdoll. I couldn't do the brace though because just before I was still trying to unwind the opposite lock, cough
.Which brings back the really big question in all this, do you actually have time to think about brace or floppy in a really big accident? I've rolled cars and driven them into parked cars at over 70 (oops) and the only thing I have ever managed to do at that point mentally is say
"Oh b
ks"during the impact and then
"This is not going to drive home, if only I could turn back the hands of time by about 3 minutes."
Rather than worrying about brace or floppy it's probably better to work out how best to phrase that phone call conversation for the person who has put up with your expensive hobby all these years. I'd recommend
"Hi gorgeous, do you remember that time I had the motorbike and I had that small prang and you had to visit me in hospital for 6 months? Well thanks to me getting this car and crashing it ... you won't have to ! That was such a good idea of yours, now you can meet the AA man as well! Get the tea on, see you soon, love you always."
Andy
Edited by zakelwe on Monday 3rd January 15:32
reggie82 said:
twazzock said:
rottie102 said:
twazzock said:
DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.k are you talking about?I don't think the baby's mass has anything to do with surviving crashes. Ok, the force the baby hits anything with would be smaller, but an adult has a bigger surface area to diperse the force across.
So although Force = Mass X Acceleration, Pressure = Force / Area.
I would expect it is to do with babies not tensing up and maybe also that their bones aren't as brittle.
And Also Weight = Mass x Gravity
clabcon said:
reggie82 said:
twazzock said:
rottie102 said:
twazzock said:
DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.k are you talking about?I don't think the baby's mass has anything to do with surviving crashes. Ok, the force the baby hits anything with would be smaller, but an adult has a bigger surface area to diperse the force across.
So although Force = Mass X Acceleration, Pressure = Force / Area.
I would expect it is to do with babies not tensing up and maybe also that their bones aren't as brittle.
And Also Weight = Mass x Gravity
EFA
Edited by MSTRBKR on Monday 3rd January 15:38
*Al* said:
Luckily never had this happen to me. Surely most people never have a split second to 'think' about what they will do.People react in different ways in varying situations of danger.I think most people would just think or shout 'Oh st!!!!' *BANG*
I lost my old diesel 106 coming round a hard left bend and found a hedge cutting tractor taking up my side of the road. He had just started cutting with no signs placed anywhere to warn drivers. Was traveling around 55 - 60mph, may have had less than a second to react. I also had 3 of my friends in the car. Pure idiocy on my part and I never drive like a moron anymore.t!!!!' *BANG*Car went round the tractor, rear end lost it, spinning, recovered and slid into the verge. Luckily, I hit nothing.
I screamed like a little girl during the whole thing till I managed to get the car stopped.
I will go with floppy and or pissed. In 2002 I slipped off the guard rail of a second storey balcony onto the concrete floor below. Very, very, very pissed at the time. The only 2 thoughts I had on the way down was 'lift your head up' and 'this is going to hurt'. I managed that but ended up with 3 broken ribs, cracked ankle and a broken wrist and some quite incredible bruising down my side. Probably the most astonishing feeling at the time was bouncing after I hit.
Wouldn't want to do it sober.
Wouldn't want to do it sober.
Edited by TVR1 on Monday 3rd January 17:17
reggie82 said:
MSTRBKR said:
Nothing to do with surface area and everything to do with volume, mass, deceleration and the body's natural ability for shock absorbance.
EFA
Why do you say volume is important, but surface area isn't?EFA
Edited by MSTRBKR on Monday 3rd January 15:38
This should explain why SA is important in a way even the vast majority of the public should be able to understand.
clabcon said:
reggie82 said:
Why do you say volume is important, but surface area isn't?
+1This should explain why SA is important in a way even the vast majority of the public should be able to understand.
I probably shouldn't have said SA has nothing to do with, as it does when you actually hit an object. I was thinking talking about deceleration forces. The deceleration force of the accident acts upon the entire volume of a person, it isn't as simple as stress = load / area. Essentially, the higher the volume of the person the lower the stress on each cubic mm of their body. They will have a greater resilience to the stresses and will be able to absorb the energy better. Of course if they actually hit objects within the car then SA comes into play with Stress = Load / Area
It's been said children fare better in accidents which might be down to their mass. Their mass is lower than an adult so the deceleration force on their body is lower (Force = Mass x Acceleration). This in turn with the softer bones gives them a better chance in accidents (I think).
Of all this though, the really important thing is to stay relaxed I reckon
EFA
Edited by MSTRBKR on Monday 3rd January 18:51
reggie82 said:
I don't think the baby's mass has anything to do with surviving crashes. Ok, the force the baby hits anything with would be smaller, but an adult has a bigger surface area to diperse the force across.
That would be relevant ONLY in the case that you smear a significant proportion of your body across part of the car in an accident. If you hit an object like the steering wheel or dash, then the surface are of your body is going to have minimal effect. Mass (and therefore force) will play a much larger role.DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.sharpfocus said:
DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.
Mr2Mike said:
reggie82 said:
I don't think the baby's mass has anything to do with surviving crashes. Ok, the force the baby hits anything with would be smaller, but an adult has a bigger surface area to diperse the force across.
That would be relevant ONLY in the case that you smear a significant proportion of your body across part of the car in an accident. If you hit an object like the steering wheel or dash, then the surface are of your body is going to have minimal effect. Mass (and therefore force) will play a much larger role.When training for any martial art which involves being thrown you first learn how to deal with an impact (because people are going to use the floor as a weapon). The nasty ones like being thrown onto the flat of your back, or being pitched in a 180 over your shoulder are all about getting the correct body position and then *relaxing*.
You pretty quickly realise that when you tense up it really really hurts.
Check this girl out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mboa7__oPKU
If you tense up doing that one it destroys you.
Think about this - what's harder to smash, a china cup (stiff) or a stress ball (soft and squidgy).
You pretty quickly realise that when you tense up it really really hurts.
Check this girl out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mboa7__oPKU
If you tense up doing that one it destroys you.
Think about this - what's harder to smash, a china cup (stiff) or a stress ball (soft and squidgy).
sharpfocus said:
DanGPR said:
Mr2Mike said:
hairyben said:
dave9 said:
floppy - that's why babies often survive unhurt
Yeah there's been a couple of big airline disasters where the only survivor was a baby.I'd definitely say floppy, as has been said before those that are drunk, on drugs, asleep or unconcious prior to the crash tend to fare better in collisions. Never brace your arms on the steering wheel as you will transfer the force through your arms and probably sustain some great burns from the airbags.
Alot of injuries are related to seat position:
Men tend to have the seat laid back more than women, so slip forward in their seats causing hip, femur, knee and ankle injuries from the pedals and steering wheels being pushed up towards the body.
Women have their seats more upright, so lift up from their seats sustaining chest and head injuries from the steering wheel and windscreen.
Alot of injuries are related to seat position:
Men tend to have the seat laid back more than women, so slip forward in their seats causing hip, femur, knee and ankle injuries from the pedals and steering wheels being pushed up towards the body.
Women have their seats more upright, so lift up from their seats sustaining chest and head injuries from the steering wheel and windscreen.
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