Honest John and Left Foot Braking?
Discussion
JimSuperSix said:
DonkeyApple said:
Paul_M3 said:
thiscocks said:
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
So you won't be covering it in any sudden unexpected emergency situations. In sudden emergency situations there is no benefit, both methods are equal. Again, nobody has ever said any different...
Unless covering the pedal the left foot is going to be at a disadvantage in a sudden event because the car is designed for right foot braking.
The ‘data’ thing is obviously the PH equivalent of the old playground ‘probe it’. It’s become a bit of a low level tool for attempting to skew a discussion.
However, beyond that it does actually have its uses. In the case of this discussion there would appear to be a pretty robust absense of data. An absense of data can tell us as much as a plethora of sets.
If cars are built with brake pedals specifically orientated for right foot operation maybe even the scientists who spend their time studying how buttered toast lands or how best to carry a cup of coffee haven’t even considered it a relevant way to spend their working time?
I’ll happily use my left foot to brake. I’ve found with s
tty little hirecars that they have no ability to move on tickover so out of habit I'll cover the brake with my left foot while manoeuvring. On my big wafty autos I will do it occasionally. On the old manual classics it’s often a prerequisite for keeping the engine running at junctions etc. And on an absolutely awful diesel BMW that is on my drive that has so much lag between pressing the throttle and getting a response from the engine it has become almost imperative to left foot brake if you want to press on and have any kind of power coming in anywhere near where the apex of a corner is. It’s quite unbelievable how much lag and disconnect there is on a modern car. I have absolutely no issue with other people using lfb in their situations where it makes their life easier etc but I’m not going to be buying into some of the tripe being spouted by SBPs about it as they attempt to justify its use for a wider audience etc. Some of these claims are well into 300BHP territory.
I learned to LFB a long time ago, because I needed for drifting. It was -for me- the best way to string together corners in my E30.
Don't do it so much anymore, but have noticed in some modern cars the power cuts out if you do so, like in some cheap rent-a-kart. It's rather annoying.
Don't do it so much anymore, but have noticed in some modern cars the power cuts out if you do so, like in some cheap rent-a-kart. It's rather annoying.
DonkeyApple said:
FiF said:
DonkeyApple said:
Paul_M3 said:
thiscocks said:
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
So you won't be covering it in any sudden unexpected emergency situations. In sudden emergency situations there is no benefit, both methods are equal. Again, nobody has ever said any different...
Unless covering the pedal the left foot is going to be at a disadvantage in a sudden event because the car is designed for right foot braking.
Depending on which foot you just shot it’s probably handy to be able to brake with either.
The point is back to the horses for courses argument. As explained by Toltec, vehicles are different, some are more easily arranged for LFB, others not.
You made your point based on someone driving with left foot on a footrest which then needed to be lifted, moved up past the brake pedal with risk of catching etc and how can that be faster.
Just to repeat my point was that it doesn't have to be so, and real life experience is that in some cases it's just as easy to slide left onto brake as right.
Also just to be clear, can't and won't speak for others but:-
I am not saying LFB is quicker.
Same not saying it's better, except for really close quarter manoeuvring in an auto where creep isn't effective.
Also not saying silly stuff like balancing in corners etc.
Not saying people should be actively encouraged to LFB either.
But what I am saying is that it's a technique which as long as anyone can use it reliably, safely, accurately, progressively, competently keeping the vehicle under full safe control, then what is it anyone else's business to say it has no place regardless.
DonkeyApple said:
I have absolutely no issue with other people using lfb in their situations where it makes their life easier etc but I’m not going to be buying into some of the tripe being spouted by SBPs about it as they attempt to justify its use for a wider audience etc. Some of these claims are well into 300BHP territory.
Agreed, fun as this is there's no way I would recommend that most of the drivers I encounter daily start trying to left foot brake, most of them are too busy texting anyway. It requires that mindset of actually wanting to learn and improve, sadly lacking in most people who see driving as something they've 100% mastered and they can use the time to do other things.If you have that mindset then I see it as a good thing to learn because there can be some very decent improvements in safety and smoothness.
JimSuperSix said:
Do you have any data to support any of those assertions?
The data is up there. The left foot reacts slower than the right. The car manufacturers say it extends braking distance and damages systems but you have ignored this. It's obviously better if the left foot is over the pedal, WHEN THE RIGHT WOULDN'T BE AND WHERE THERE IS NO OVERLAP. There may be other ways to deal with this and, in all other situations, the actual data does show an advantage for RFB. Not to mention anecdotal advantages and the safety bodies/other experts who advocate it. The Australian equivalent of the IAM even say it may invalidate insurance to do it as it's negligence. Edited by Graveworm on Friday 11th October 16:40
Graveworm said:
JimSuperSix said:
Do you have any data to support any of those assertions?
The data is up there. The left foot reacts slower than the right. The car manufacturers say it extends braking distance and damages systems but you have ignored this. It's obviously better if the left foot is over the pedal, WHEN THE RIGHT WOULDN'T BE AND WHERE THERE IS NO OVERLAP. There may be other ways to deal with this and, in all other situations, the actual data does show an advantage for RFB. Not to mention anecdotal advantages and the safety bodies/other experts who advocate it. The Australian equivalent of the IAM even say it may invalidate insurance to do it as it's negligence. Edited by Graveworm on Friday 11th October 16:40
Graveworm said:
The data is up there. The left foot reacts slower than the right. The car manufacturers say it extends braking distance and damages systems but you have ignored this. It's obviously better if the left foot is over the pedal, WHEN THE RIGHT WOULDN'T BE AND WHERE THERE IS NO OVERLAP. There may be other ways to deal with this and, in all other situations, the actual data does show an advantage for RFB. Not to mention anecdotal advantages and the safety bodies/other experts who advocate it. The Australian equivalent of the IAM even say it may invalidate insurance to do it as it's negligence.
What interests me is exactly how the car knows which foot you are pressing the brake with and why it it extends braking distances and damages systems. Do we know what systems BTW? Short of pressing both pedals to a significant degree at once, as in trying to do a burnout, how would any extra strain be caused? I suppose for braking they mean drivers will not press as quickly and firmly with their left foot, though I thought the emergency brake assist system would counteract that. Edited by Graveworm on Friday 11th October 16:40
InitialDave said:
I would assume a statement from a manufacturer that left foot braking can damage things is in reference to using it while also being on the throttle.
In which case they should probably build stronger drivetrains.
My guess is it's about the safety aids,ABS stability programs launch control etc. I am sure it's about overlap, but I know I overlap when I LFB brake. I am pretty sure everyone does and being sure that you wouldn't, especially in an emergency, is unlikely. In which case they should probably build stronger drivetrains.
Edited by Graveworm on Friday 11th October 21:05
I like to left foot brake.
My 986s does not.
It cuts the power and stuff if you “overlap” and is generally crap.
I asked the question on PH about this and nobody was interested but someone references “honest john” and we get 600+ replies.
and I still don’t know how to tell my 986 guardian angel to bugger off and look after someone else....
My 986s does not.
It cuts the power and stuff if you “overlap” and is generally crap.
I asked the question on PH about this and nobody was interested but someone references “honest john” and we get 600+ replies.
and I still don’t know how to tell my 986 guardian angel to bugger off and look after someone else....
Graveworm said:
My guess is it's about the safety aids,ABS stability programs launch control etc. I am sure it's about overlap but I know I overlap when I LFB brake I am pretty sure everyone does and being sure that you wouldn't especially in an emergency is unlikely.
Minor overlap is not going to damage the driveline, it can confuse the electronics on some cars, which is just another use case. If in an emergency situation you are already pressing the brake before you have completely come off the brake then that kind of proves your lfb is a lot faster and because you started braking earlier you will stop earlier. That there may be some residual drive from the engine is irrelevant as that would have lasted just as long, you would simply be a bit later and have travelled further before your right foot finally started the braking. Toltec said:
Minor overlap is not going to damage the driveline, it can confuse the electronics on some cars, which is just another use case. If in an emergency situation you are already pressing the brake before you have completely come off the brake then that kind of proves your lfb is a lot faster and because you started braking earlier you will stop earlier. That there may be some residual drive from the engine is irrelevant as that would have lasted just as long, you would simply be a bit later and have travelled further before your right foot finally started the braking.
Well the people who make the cars disagree.. There is also the problem that the gross motor skill in applying the brake, in an emergency, may also cause physiological issues in the fine motor skill to keep the right foot off the gas and away from the brake. Graveworm said:
Well the people who make the cars disagree.. There is also the problem that the gross motor skill in applying the brake, in an emergency, may also cause physiological issues in the fine motor skill to keep the right foot off the gas and away from the brake.
Seriously ‘ may also cause physiological issues in the fine motor skill to keep the right foot off the gas and away from the brake’. WTF is that all about? 
It’s very simple. There’s 2 pedals and you have 2 feet but you think it’s logical to use just one of them for both pedals.
bad company said:
Graveworm said:
Well the people who make the cars disagree.. There is also the problem that the gross motor skill in applying the brake, in an emergency, may also cause physiological issues in the fine motor skill to keep the right foot off the gas and away from the brake.
Seriously ‘ may also cause physiological issues in the fine motor skill to keep the right foot off the gas and away from the brake’. WTF is that all about? It’s very simple. There’s 2 pedals and you have 2 feet but you think it’s logical to use just one of them for both pedals.
A simple typo and it’s curtains for sanity in my book.
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