RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW

[Gary C]

I still want one.

That said, if the STi version was 245hp with a n/a engine, I would want that more.

Arrg. I have managed to get the old polo back on the road and insure it for three of the kids for the same amount it cost to put one on my 2016 polo, so when that lease runs out, I'm free to buy next year.

[braddo]

That's the thing, were it not for current emissions regs or related car tax reasons, Toyota and Subaru could be offering us a nice NA 2.0-2.5 with a proper 200-250 hp quite easily. But those limitations are there; it seems to me wishful thinking to pretend otherwise.
If only there were a thing called the Aftermarket...

[braddo]

Sorry I did mean to mention to daemon, that if you do indeed take a GT86 for a proper test drive, to forget about all this forum nonsense, and remember that you're used to faster cars, and try to judge the car for how it makes one feel, not just in terms of the push in the back but in driving position and tactility blah blah blah

[daemon]

braddo said:

Like I said, you're being a cheapskate by focusing on price all the time!!!!!!
You are judging the car repeatedly on its Uk price and 0-60. All those other cars you owned and you don't seem to see the performance benefits the car offers beyond simple 0-60 stats.

Name calling again?

My gut feeling is the performance is too far removed from what i want in a performance car, for its other merits to override that.

However, as i've already said, we'll get an extended test drive over a weekend or so when we're due a change of the A45.

TBH a new Cayman is more likely to tick the required boxes though.

Sorry if makes me a cheapskate to you.

[jamoor]

braddo said:

Sorry I did mean to mention to daemon, that if you do indeed take a GT86 for a proper test drive, to forget about all this forum nonsense, and remember that you're used to faster cars, and try to judge the car for how it makes one feel, not just in terms of the push in the back but in driving position and tactility blah blah blah

Indeed, it looks great, excellent driving position, fantastic visibility, cheap running costs (excl depreciation) cool interior with excellent attention to detail that I've never seen before. I particularly like the little Ts all over the interior that extends to the front mesh grill and to the rear light cluster, Never seen something like that before on any car.
Most of its advantages in my mind can't really be put on a spec sheet.

[daemon]

braddo said:

Sorry I did mean to mention to daemon, that if you do indeed take a GT86 for a proper test drive, to forget about all this forum nonsense, and remember that you're used to faster cars, and try to judge the car for how it makes one feel, not just in terms of the push in the back but in driving position and tactility blah blah blah

Well thats exactly why i'm going to take an extended test drive in one - because theres enough feedback on here to suggest its worth doing. Wont be for a while yet though - the A45 is only 8 months old.

An RS200 i hope to slip "under the radar" as its an addition, not a replacement and its currently my sons car but hes moving to AUS so i hope to buy it by stealth without the missus giving off....

[Gary C]

daemon said:

Well thats exactly why i'm going to take an extended test drive in one - because theres enough feedback on here to suggest its worth doing. Wont be for a while yet though - the A45 is only 8 months old.

An RS200 i hope to slip "under the radar" as its an addition, not a replacement and its currently my sons car but hes moving to AUS so i hope to buy it by stealth without the missus giving off....

Eek, you want to sneak a group b rally car under the radar of the wife, good luck

[daemon]

Gary C said:

daemon said:

Well thats exactly why i'm going to take an extended test drive in one - because theres enough feedback on here to suggest its worth doing. Wont be for a while yet though - the A45 is only 8 months old.

An RS200 i hope to slip "under the radar" as its an addition, not a replacement and its currently my sons car but hes moving to AUS so i hope to buy it by stealth without the missus giving off....

Eek, you want to sneak a group b rally car under the radar of the wife, good luck

Sadly not - just a Clio RS200

I've a soft spot for them. Had a 172 and 197 last year.

Edited by daemon on Wednesday 31st May 22:25

[otolith]

daemon said:

Theres a big difference between saying it looks quicker than it is and make it look slower.

Is there? That depends whether you think how it looks is a problem.

Is it a problem to sell a little rwd coupe with 200bhp and 0-60 in about 7.5?

Is it a problem to take said car and style it like the GT86? If it is, how should it be styled differently? If it isn't, what are you whinging about?

[venquessa]

I think tying this full circle back to the original article we can safely say that daemon just doesn't get it. Loads of people do, loads of people don't.

I get it, in fact I'm trading my GT86 in for another one shortly.

[300bhp/ton]

braddo said:

daemon said:

Just did some checking...

Entry level Ford Fiesta ST here - £18,935
Entry level Mazda MX5 here - £18,795
Entry level Toyota GT86 here - £26,855

In Australia (Melbourne Prices)

Entry level Ford Fiesta ST here - $31,301 (£18,056)
Entry level Mazda MX5 there - $37,496 (£21,630)
Entry level Toyota GT86 there - $35,067 (£20,229)

If Toyota UK had opted to follow the Toyota AUS pricing, we'd be paying approx £20,995 for the entry level GT86.

Like I said, you're being a cheapskate by focusing on price all the time!!!!!!
You are judging the car repeatedly on its Uk price and 0-60. All those other cars you owned and you don't seem to see the performance benefits the car offers beyond simple 0-60 stats.

And would people stop going on about Honda vtecs and Toyota 190 vvti engines when they have been unsaleable for what, 7 years now??? The gt86 and Mazda are the only remotely interesting NA engines on sale today (oh, plus Lotus) so we should be embracing them even if they need a bit of aftermarket tuning to compensate for the current emissions limitations.

Price plays a huge part though. Unless you are completely loaded and money means nothing. But in that case, you'd probably not be looking at a GT86....

And it's not about being a cheapskate (which frankly if you think someone unable to buy a £27k car is a cheapskate, then you are a bit of a knobber!!!). It's about being affordable to the intended target audience.

And based on the relatively poor sales performance in the UK, it would seem Toyota/Subaru haven't struck this right yet.

[Blayney]

Out of interest what number of GT86/BRZ sold in the UK would constitute a success? Genuine question.

[Alex]

Blayney said:

Out of interest what number of GT86/BRZ sold in the UK would constitute a success? Genuine question.

According to HowManyLeft.com, there are just under 6,000 GT86s and BRZs registered in the UK (inc. SORN), which seems like a decent number for a "niche" car.

[Olivera]

Max_Torque said:

dash86 vs MX-5 RF:

2017 Mazda MX-5 Miata RF vs. 2017 Toyota 86 - Head 2 Head Ep. 89


Spoiler, the dash86's extra 40 horses completely fail to make an appearance...........

Make that 50 extra horses - the 2017 GT86 in the US is 205bhp, the Mazda 155bhp.

If anyone know where the extra 50 bhp went please let us all know.

[AW111]

I like the 86, but I think the pricing issue is very relevant. If I bought one, I would be factoring in the price of some minor modifications (exhaust manifold / remap).
It's much easier to justify this on a car that's cheaper than a new MX5.

I would also hold off on the mods until it had a few miles under it's belt.
Anecdotally those engines loosen up and rev more smoothly after a bit of use : any owners care to comment?

[300bhp/ton]

Blayney said:

Out of interest what number of GT86/BRZ sold in the UK would constitute a success? Genuine question.

Not wanting to dodge the question, but you'd have to define what 'success' means.

For example, when Jeep first imported the JK Rubicon to the UK, they pre-sold their entire allocation, i.e. all the vehicles they'd be getting for a year. They were all pre-sold 6-12 months in advance.

Sounds like success doesn't it.

However as it turned out, Jeep UK only had 6 cars for their total allocation...


As for the GT86, well I'm sure the car makers would call it success either way, but I'd say I see far too few of them on the roads to be a success. I see a lot more new Mustangs, which have been on sale for only a fraction of the time.

For the record, I think MG used to sell 10,000 - 12,000 MGTF's a year back in 2002/3. GT86 sales look rather pitiful by comparison.

[300bhp/ton]

Alex said:

Blayney said:

Out of interest what number of GT86/BRZ sold in the UK would constitute a success? Genuine question.

According to HowManyLeft.com, there are just under 6,000 GT86s and BRZs registered in the UK (inc. SORN), which seems like a decent number for a "niche" car.

But that's the thing, it really isn't a 'niche' car. It should be a mass market, easily available and attainable coupe.

How Many Left says just under 6000, of which only 500 are Subaru's. However that is since Q4 2011.

Ok, so lets say 2012. That's still 5 1/2 years!!!

Which is only 1090 cars a year.

Considering Ford managed to sell a far more 'niche' car for the UK market, the Mustang and managed to sell 4500 in a year. The GT86 sales for the UK market are pretty dreadful.

[Blayney]

Olivera said:

Max_Torque said:

dash86 vs MX-5 RF:

2017 Mazda MX-5 Miata RF vs. 2017 Toyota 86 - Head 2 Head Ep. 89


Spoiler, the dash86's extra 40 horses completely fail to make an appearance...........

Make that 50 extra horses - the 2017 GT86 in the US is 205bhp, the Mazda 155bhp.

If anyone know where the extra 50 bhp went please let us all know.

It's amusing because, having watched the whole video, it further reinforces just how much you've both missed the point.

With Max's background I am sure he's being deliberately obtuse and knows there's a difference between peak horse power on paper and real world performance.

From the video - the time difference at "Streets of Willow" was negligible between both cars. Of course looking at lap times is still missing the point. Having looked at other lap times for the same course, Randy managed to put a Mazda 3 MPS with 260bhp around there only 0.5 seconds quicker than the '86. Some unknown person went around slower in a 997 911 Turbo...

What did Randy have to say? "Amazing that car is great" "It's just like an extension of the body, it's a dance" "it pulls better at high rpm, good strong brake pedal, it just has a sense of control". So he liked it. Most reviews I've read/seen by someone who can drive well have raved about the GT86.

I have a copy of last months EVO (May) that also compares these two cars. I'll reproduce the conclusion in full.

"The Toyota GT86 is the better sports car. It struggles to match the MX-5 for pace but, equally, it isn't a "slow" car, and there's great pleasure to be had engaging with the drivetrain. It also feels the better-made product, puts you in great touch with the action and has a greater depth of ability, from its feedback to its willingness to raise its game when you raise yours.

The Mazda is a grower. Stay within the limits of its chassis and it's a whole lot of fun to drive, the exaggerated body movements giving it a playful feel and the extra grip giving it higher cross-country pace. It also looks great inside and out, costs less to buy, averaged a remarkable 40mpg over the course of our test (10mpg more than the Toyota) and, with it's folding roof, will appeal to some buyers in a way the coupe-only GT86 cannot match).

Roof-down on a rare sunny day in north Wales, the Mazda is an invigorating car, with a punchier engine, rortier exhaust note and theatrical body movements, but I suspect many reading this will prefer the Toyota's precision, composure and greater focus.

But if Mazda one day decides to make a tin-top MX-5 with a stiffer structure and a firmer chassis, that would be most refreshing of all."


A few important bits from within the article.

On straight line performance:

"The RF is 39bhp down on the GT86, at 158bhp plays 197, and it has slightly less torque too, producing 147lb ft to the Toyota's 151lb ft. But three things count in the Mazda's favour. Firstly, its peak outputs are developed lower down the rev-range than those of the Toyota - considerably so in the case of torque, with the GT86 starting to produce maximum twist just 600rpm shy of its power peak.

Secondly, Mazda's tireless efforts to cut weight allow the RF to undercut the '86 by nearly 200kg, despite the extra hardware sitting on its rear deck. And finally, the MX5's 2-litre in-line four is simply more enthusiastic and punches through snappier gear ratios than th GT86's Subaru-sourced boxer engine"

Oh handling, feedback, control... driving;

"As you trust the front end, so you begin to bring the rear into play. The GT86 corners flat, far more so than the Mazda, so things begin to happen as soon as you've loaded up the chassis. And yes, sometimes there's a touch of understeer, but, once you've identified this through your fingertips, you need only relax your toes to balance the chassis. From that point, with the front and rear tyres sharing equal load, you can feed in more power and tighten your cornering line with the rear wheels. It'll do this around virtually any corner, and while that outright lack of grip means an average hot hatch would soon be several turns ahead, it's deeply satisfying to string together a sequence of bends, the Toyota seemingly on tip-toes, always a throttle movement away from a few more degrees of rotation."

"Unsurprisingly, it's the Toyota that delivers the biggest grins when you begin to play in the corners"



For what it's worth, I actually think both cars are great and are some of the few cars available on sale today that I would actually consider buying. The MX-5 will undoubtedly out-sell the GT86 - it has the heritage now, it's cheaper, you can put the roof down. However the GT86 will appeal to those who want more of a drivers car.

Edited by Blayney on Thursday 1st June 11:48

[Blayney]

300bhp/ton said:

Blayney said:

Out of interest what number of GT86/BRZ sold in the UK would constitute a success? Genuine question.

Not wanting to dodge the question, but you'd have to define what 'success' means.

In a round-a-bout way that is what I'm asking. What number would everyone define as a success? What is a sales success for the GT86? Is it Toyota meeting it's internal sales targets (that I doubt we'll be able to find out)? Is it selling as many as the MX-5 (never going to happen)? Is it selling more than the 350z (in which case it would be a success)? Is it selling more than an average hot hatch, say a Golf GTi (which is out-sold by the R... which is outsold by the GTD...)?

[Alex]

Blayney said:

"As you trust the front end, so you begin to bring the rear into play. The GT86 corners flat, far more so than the Mazda, so things begin to happen as soon as you've loaded up the chassis. And yes, sometimes there's a touch of understeer, but, once you've identified this through your fingertips, you need only relax your toes to balance the chassis. From that point, with the front and rear tyres sharing equal load, you can feed in more power and tighten your cornering line with the rear wheels. It'll do this around virtually any corner, and while that outright lack of grip means an average hot hatch would soon be several turns ahead, it's deeply satisfying to string together a sequence of bends, the Toyota seemingly on tip-toes, always a throttle movement away from a few more degrees of rotation."

This is the key to understanding the GT86.