ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
There are some better stats coming out from the Rac looks like around 700,000 cars affected by this within the M25, if you add the people driving in for work from outside the m25 into Greater London then maybe over 1 million cars being hit by this tax.
And next we will have road charging pay per mile plus all the existing taxes. It’s a massive cost to people living in the area and people are slowly waking up to how many will be affected.
I don’t live inside the proposed zone but drive inside the area maybe 10-15 times a month ( so add £120 to £180 per month to my motoring costs - mostly based on visiting customers not for social or family reasons).
Some info here
https://youtu.be/HTwqZERug5w
And next we will have road charging pay per mile plus all the existing taxes. It’s a massive cost to people living in the area and people are slowly waking up to how many will be affected.
I don’t live inside the proposed zone but drive inside the area maybe 10-15 times a month ( so add £120 to £180 per month to my motoring costs - mostly based on visiting customers not for social or family reasons).
Some info here
https://youtu.be/HTwqZERug5w
James6112 said:
DodgyGeezer said:
fatboy18 said:
And to add to this ALL Roads (not just the residential) in London are now going to be 20mph including the A1 (according to the Evening Standard).
20mph is quicker than now
The true positive for 20 in very urban areas is the equalising of all the different traffic types. Road safety is the net gain rather than any fabricated pollen and dirt measurements that aren't where the most vulnerable spend their time.
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
We've acted on this reality for decades in the motorway environment and the urban environment has been playing catch-up.
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
We've acted on this reality for decades in the motorway environment and the urban environment has been playing catch-up.
fatboy18 said:
And to add to this ALL Roads (not just the residential) in London are now going to be 20mph including the A1 (according to the Evening Standard).
Many main roads have been 20mph for a while in London and the majority of drivers I have seen still drive down them at up to 30mph, slowing down to 20mph in those places where there are speed cameras. DonkeyApple said:
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
I disagree with this bit. You are detailing examples of the same mode of transport which then sounds like a big scrum of mismatched vehicles travelling at different speeds.What in reality you have are (1) motorised vehicles and (2) push bikes.
What you also have is a consistent speed limit, probably 30 in most cases, that is being reduced by a third.
Ironically it will probably result in push bikes (your vulnerable group) being the fastest and also often being the mode of transport most likely to break the new lower speed limit
menousername said:
DonkeyApple said:
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
I disagree with this bit. You are detailing examples of the same mode of transport which then sounds like a big scrum of mismatched vehicles travelling at different speeds.What in reality you have are (1) motorised vehicles and (2) push bikes.
What you also have is a consistent speed limit, probably 30 in most cases, that is being reduced by a third.
Ironically it will probably result in push bikes (your vulnerable group) being the fastest and also often being the mode of transport most likely to break the new lower speed limit
menousername said:
DonkeyApple said:
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
I disagree with this bit. You are detailing examples of the same mode of transport which then sounds like a big scrum of mismatched vehicles travelling at different speeds.What in reality you have are (1) motorised vehicles and (2) push bikes.
What you also have is a consistent speed limit, probably 30 in most cases, that is being reduced by a third.
Ironically it will probably result in push bikes (your vulnerable group) being the fastest and also often being the mode of transport most likely to break the new lower speed limit
If it gets conflated into the whole eco crap being used by provincial political loons to exert power, expand authority and to secure future speaking gigs and book deals about 'their struggle' then it is far from ideal.
You can see this lunacy at work in Wales and there is a strong whiff of it in London. Along with blocking off side roads to create increased congestion to spike the pollution data to meet the agenda requirements it just adds up to a silliness that attracts prejudiced extremists and zeolots who then start frothing about anyone who asks them for proof being right wing fascists and child killers.
It does all need a reset and a removal of the loons on either side. Just embrace road charging like we do train charging and simply recognise that tourists, visitors and larger cars and larger engines just need to pay much more to drive around than residents with small frugal cars.
It should remain a progressive fixed fee structure because we already know that black boxing to charge per mile is, like fuel duty, a regressive form of taxation that is best left on things like lard and sugar to help fat stupid people from polluting less and being not quite the massive lifelong drain on services.
Nearly all pushbikes are now electric and travelling around 20 anyway now. Makes it very awkward to pass them. Obvs no rules for them, and mostly not much sense either.
Regarding the 12mph average thats misdirection. If I had to travel at a max of 20 plainly my average would fall further. What then, 15mph limit?
Regarding the 12mph average thats misdirection. If I had to travel at a max of 20 plainly my average would fall further. What then, 15mph limit?
CoolHands said:
Nearly all pushbikes are now electric and travelling around 20 anyway now. Makes it very awkward to pass them. Obvs no rules for them, and mostly not much sense either.
Regarding the 12mph average thats misdirection. If I had to travel at a max of 20 plainly my average would fall further. What then, 15mph limit?
‘Misdirection’ is the kind way of putting it. Regarding the 12mph average thats misdirection. If I had to travel at a max of 20 plainly my average would fall further. What then, 15mph limit?
Especially when it comes from someone who’s always accusing others of being thick.
CoolHands said:
Nearly all pushbikes are now electric and travelling around 20 anyway now
Yes, drove down Queenstown Road in Battersea last week - bloke on the pavement waving his arms at me combined with police marked on Waze meant I stuck to a ridiculous 20mph on a wide empty road (not wanting two NIPs in a week for 24 in a 20). Was passed by an electric delivery bike in the bus lane before getting to the nice policemen and their speed camera.20 is just silly on many roads - Park Lane southbound, for instance, is a joke.
James6112 said:
DodgyGeezer said:
fatboy18 said:
And to add to this ALL Roads (not just the residential) in London are now going to be 20mph including the A1 (according to the Evening Standard).
20mph is quicker than now
DonkeyApple said:
The true positive for 20 in very urban areas is the equalising of all the different traffic types. Road safety is the net gain rather than any fabricated pollen and dirt measurements that aren't where the most vulnerable spend their time.
By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
We've acted on this reality for decades in the motorway environment and the urban environment has been playing catch-up.
Not sure.By matching bikes, cars, taxis, vans, trucks and buses to a max speed that is defined by the most vulnerable of the road user group you limit the opportunity for incidents that were caused by that mismatch.
We've acted on this reality for decades in the motorway environment and the urban environment has been playing catch-up.
Smart motorways with cameras every half a mile and roadworks stretches with average cameras match vehicle speeds, and they are more dangerous in my opinion, than equivalent routes without the constant enforcement. You end up mixed up together with traffic fixed in blind spots for longer and it only takes one person to not check over the shoulder and there's the conflict, a portion of which will lead to collisions. I use the M25 and M1 regularly, the M1 especially is a horrible road to use. I see it all the time.
When I'm commuting in outer London by cycle the same applies. I do about 15 mph, which is now pretty close to the free flow speed in 20 limits. What happens is some herbert passes me too close very slowly (because they're not very good drivers and don't want to exceed the magic 23 threshold) and then sits there with me nicely in his blind spot, but because he's passed me I no longer exist as far as he's concerned so there's a conflict further up the road. To avoid the conflict I can either slow down or pass him, so I'm now impeded or increasing my risk.
Nobody cycles to make their journey slower than driving, so of course, we're going to look for the opportunity to make progress as safely as we can.
The opportunity for an incident is increased in both examples. Matching vehicle speeds does not make roads safer. Proper observation and courtesy makes roads safer.
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