ULEZ charge in 2021

[Ice_blue_tvr]

braddo said:

The people who live on busy roads in outer london are going to benefit from dirty diesels being priced off the road. Do you think that is a waste of money?

Yes. If your aim is clean air and not revenue generation/legacy building.

If you are worried about people along the a12 and a20 there are other targeted solutions which the mayor intentionally dismisses. Other cities have installed road side air scrubbers. These will continue to clean the local air long after diesels have dissappeared. But unfortunately these won't allow the mayor to target tyre and brake emissions from EVs further down the line as they will clean those particles too.

Edited by Ice_blue_tvr on Thursday 6th April 04:54

[Second Best]

A little side issue that the ULEZ has caused.

I got a friendly call from someone who's looked after a classic car of mine for a number of years. He asked me how I was, what else I was driving, general matey stuff, and then said my car was due an MOT and service in May, when did I want to bring it over?

One of the most awkward conversations I've had. I told him I'd not be bringing my car to him again. Why? It's a classic car but isn't ULEZ compliant (that 1.3L engine is single-handedly killing polar bear families in the 5,000 miles it's done in just over 6 years). It's cheaper for me to drive the car an hour out of the way to somewhere down south, than it is to pay £12.50 x2 for the ULEZ charge.

The chap sighed and said the garage been servicing these cars for nearly 50 years(!) but I was one of a long list of customers who had similar opinions.

The garage is now permanently closed.

Many thanks to the ULEZ folks who've destroyed a half-century business. No doubt the land will get bought up by Saudi "investors" who charge £9 million for a one bedroom flat.

[DonkeyApple]

Fastdruid said:

Graveworm said:

braddo said:

Nox is a local air quality issue. Hence it being targeted in clean air zones in cities. A national chart is irrelevant.

And ulez infrastructure is also for road pricing in the future. It will pay for itself.

The people who live on busy roads in outer london are going to benefit from dirty diesels being priced off the road. Do you think that is a waste of money?

That's PM 2.5 not Nox you brought up mandated targets from govt. PM 2.5 is the mandated target and that target is 35% not locally but nationally. Wherever you are less than half of PM 2.5 vehicle emissions comes from the engine.
Again you can't have it both ways if more PM2.5 in London comes from car exhausts then, given that the exhaust element from cars has fallen at a much faster rate, than other sources, then, in London, air quality will have already improved compared to the rest of the UK.

IF it's only a local issue then outer London is already much closer to meeting targets than central London so why the expansion?

In 2017 the contribution, in London, from exhausts to PM 2.5 was estimated by the GLA to be 13% their predictions were that it would fall to 2% by 2030 without extending ULEZ to outer London. From GLA figures we know they will decrease this by 2% so - without ULEZ expansion 2% with ULEZ expansion 1.96% .....
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/pm2....

It's not just PMx

https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/v...

DEFRA said:

The UK’s National Emission Ceilings Regulations (NECR) 2018 (UK Government, 2018) sets emission reduction commitments (ERCs) for the total emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOX), oxides of sulphur (SOX), non-methane volatile organic compounds (NMVOC), ammonia (NH3) and particulate matter as PM2.5 in 2020 and 2030

DEFRA said:

The revised Convention on Long Range Transboundary Air Pollution (CLRTAP) and National Emission Ceilings Regulations (NECR) requires the UK to reduce emissions of nitrogen oxides by 55 per cent compared to emissions in 2005 by 2020 and in each subsequent year, up to and including 2029 (and by 73 per cent compared to emissions in 2005 by 2030).

DEFRA said:

The most immediate air quality challenge is tackling nitrogen dioxide concentrations. NO2 is associated with adverse effects on human health (COMEAP, 2015), (COMEAP, 2018). Estimating the long-term impacts of NO2 pollution is difficult, because of the challenge of separating its effects from those of other trafficrelated pollutants. Although it has been more difficult to estimate the level of impact, there is enough evidence of such health effects to support the need to take action now.

Now unless I've got my sums wrong, legally the UK has to reduce NOx down to <0.47 (million tons) from the current 0.67 Million tons by 2030. A reduction of roughly 1/3rd of the current amount.

And getting Londoners to sell their best NOx producing cars to the peasantry out in the regions achieves this how?

Something like London ULEZ merely momentarily speeds up the shifting of used cars out to the regions. The vehicles remain in the U.K. but now are possibly doing higher mileages because of the different way cars are used in less densely populated and less affluent areas.

We can look at our national policy for reducing U.K. NOx and cite ULEZ as a positive. Arguably it's a negative as it artificially increases the migration rate of used cars.

ULEZ was a huge opportunity for London and also the SE but it is being squandered by invidious third world politics, lies and regressive taxation. It's a huge shame but, it only impacts poor people and no one cares about them whether they're in London or the regions. We can all carry on driving whatever we want in London as much as we want, safe in the knowledge that the peasantry are getting a nice kicking.

[braddo]

It isn't quite that simple. Non-compliant cars moving out to the shires still helps to supplant even dirtier vehicles in those areas. So ULEZ and the other CAZs are still accelerating the clean-up of the UK national fleet.

[braddo]

CoolHands said:

Amazing how a complete thread can be rendered unreadable by just a couple of posters. I suppose that’s their aim.

Far better to just be a moanfest about The Man trampling on the working class and owners of modern classics.

[NomduJour]

braddo said:

So ULEZ and the other CAZs are still accelerating the clean-up of the UK national fleet.

Khan’s genius knows no bounds. What a hero. Good old Sadiq.

Is there mescaline in that Kool-Aid?

[DonkeyApple]

braddo said:

It isn't quite that simple. Non-compliant cars moving out to the shires still helps to supplant even dirtier vehicles in those areas. So ULEZ and the other CAZs are still accelerating the clean-up of the UK national fleet.

Only if the old London exports are replacing the ancient wagons in the regions which there isn't data to support. What the data does support is that these London exports are replacing new sales, which is even worse. This is being shown in the fall in new car sales and a fall in scrapping of old cars. This suggests a trend among lower income households of breaking away from leasing new cars and reverting to borrowing against used.

Now there could be a counter argument that the fall in new sales is down to the mystical chip shortage that is the cause of all woes and the de facto excuse for many but again the data shows that the trend reversion was underway in 2018/19 already.

The dreadful London scrapage numbers are not good at all. But then the criteria are set to push that sector of society out of cars completely.

Taxing all London car use via appropriate, progressive fees would not only have been honest but would have delivered the funds to simply scrap everything non compliant as opposed to sending it to the regions to carry on potentially even greater levels of national pollution to the detriment of all.

Sadly, policies borne from dogma, contempt and religious level utopian fantasies rarely result in positive change. What they do lead to, inevitably, is a self obsessed loon standing up and frothing about child murder, Nazis and using fabricated and twisted data ever more frantically.

[andy43]

braddo said:

It isn't quite that simple. Non-compliant cars moving out to the shires still helps to supplant even dirtier vehicles in those areas. So ULEZ and the other CAZs are still accelerating the clean-up of the UK national fleet.

This is called natural attrition - old cars are replaced by newer cars.
Screwing those least likely to be able to cope with a forced change isn’t helping anybody.
Manchester have now admitted we’ll meet emissions targets by 2027 (iirc) anyway so I really don’t understand why we’re bothering to try and coat road charging with green paint. Water based paint obvs.

[andy43]

Fastdruid said:

… Long Range Transboundary Air Pollution…

There’s your problem. Wind.
Pm2.5 is another problem that doesn’t fit the narrative - it’s now mostly coming from tyres and brakes, not exhausts unless you’re talking knackered London taxis. My Tesla was 2.5 tonnes or something silly. Add speed bumps for extra effect.

[C70R]

s1962a said:

NomduJour said:

ULEZ is a way for Khan to milk cash from people whilst introducing road charging infrastructure by the back door - absolutely nothing more.

NOx from vehicle traffic will continue to decrease whatever stupid scheme is implemented.

Hopefully the next mayor rights this wrong and backtracks from ULEZ and road charging. When are the next mayoral elections ?

You mean like the candidate who ran in the last election, who was specifically against the ULEZ expansion? The one who lost handily?

[s1962a]

C70R said:

s1962a said:

NomduJour said:

ULEZ is a way for Khan to milk cash from people whilst introducing road charging infrastructure by the back door - absolutely nothing more.

NOx from vehicle traffic will continue to decrease whatever stupid scheme is implemented.

Hopefully the next mayor rights this wrong and backtracks from ULEZ and road charging. When are the next mayoral elections ?

You mean like the candidate who ran in the last election, who was specifically against the ULEZ expansion? The one who lost handily?

Yeah but look at the milllions upon millions of voices calling for ULEZ to be scrapped. They will vote for the next anti-ULEZ candidate and all will be right again.

[Granadier]

C70R said:

s1962a said:

NomduJour said:

ULEZ is a way for Khan to milk cash from people whilst introducing road charging infrastructure by the back door - absolutely nothing more.

NOx from vehicle traffic will continue to decrease whatever stupid scheme is implemented.

Hopefully the next mayor rights this wrong and backtracks from ULEZ and road charging. When are the next mayoral elections ?

You mean like the candidate who ran in the last election, who was specifically against the ULEZ expansion? The one who lost handily?

Perhaps worth noting that Khan's manifesto for the 2021 election mentioned the ULEZ expansion to the North and South Circulars, which was due to happen a few months after that election, but said nothing about any thought of expanding it to the whole of Greater London, so that particular question was not put to the electorate.

[C70R]

Granadier said:

C70R said:

s1962a said:

NomduJour said:

ULEZ is a way for Khan to milk cash from people whilst introducing road charging infrastructure by the back door - absolutely nothing more.

NOx from vehicle traffic will continue to decrease whatever stupid scheme is implemented.

Hopefully the next mayor rights this wrong and backtracks from ULEZ and road charging. When are the next mayoral elections ?

You mean like the candidate who ran in the last election, who was specifically against the ULEZ expansion? The one who lost handily?

Perhaps worth noting that Khan's manifesto for the 2021 election mentioned the ULEZ expansion to the North and South Circulars, which was due to happen a few months after that election, but said nothing about any thought of expanding it to the whole of Greater London, so that particular question was not put to the electorate.

So you're suggesting that many of the millions who voted for the Mayor wanted the ULEZ to expand to the Circulars, but no further?

That seems unlikely.

[Rockettvr]

Hi all,
Just wondering what the future will be once the Ulez goose stops laying it’s golden eggs.
At some point ( probably quite quickly ) the revenue from the Ulez charge is going to reduce markedly as people swap to Ulez compliant vehicles

So what then ?
Obviously some sort of charge is going to be introduced to replace the lost revenues.
The catchment area can’t be extended as come August the boundary of Greater London will be reached.
The easiest would be to ramp up the cost of the charge from £12.50 to ??? £15 ? £20 ?
Easy to justify ( we’ve made great gains but some people just won’t change blah blah)
But that’s only a short term fix as again people will switch to compliant cars reducing revenue.
They could I suppose tighten the emissions belt ? Again using the clean air/health argument ( we’ve made great gains on air quality but need tighter controls to make it even better blah blah )
The con census on here seems to be road charging - but that ( I assume) would need either a lot more infrastructure installing or all vehicles to be fitted with a tracker of some sort. I can imagine there being an enormous amount of resistance to that, in that everyone has to pay, not just those evil polluters in non Ulez cars, and also from a civil liberties point of view.
Or there could be a widening of the congestion charge scheme where if you’re in the new Ulez area you pay say £5 a day , come inside the existing Ulez zone that’s now £10 a day , come into the existing congestion charging zone in the centre of London that’s £20.
At the moment Ulez is quite an easy sell as it’s always linked to health and you can garner support by demonising a small section of society (those evil polluting non Ulez cars poisoning your children) a tactic beloved of some leaders both past and present, but if you can’t do that , then it’s abundantly clear it’s just a cash grab to be blown on your latest vanity project it’s a much harder sell.
So to get to the nub of it - how do you think Ulez revenue will be replaced and what will be the justification for it ?

Edited by Rockettvr on Thursday 6th April 13:35

[NomduJour]

Already been mentioned that, in its proposed format, ULEZ will be a white elephant within three years.

[CoolHands]

braddo said:

Far better to just be a moanfest about The Man trampling on the working class and owners of modern classics.

How disingenuous of you. You and c70 are here just to spoil the thread, its pretty transparent.

[braddo]

CoolHands said:

How disingenuous of you. You and c70 are here just to spoil the thread, its pretty transparent.

Bless, you want to have a nice moan in an echo chamber and I'm spoiling your experience?

[DonkeyApple]

Rockettvr said:

Hi all,
Just wondering what the future will be once the Ulez goose stops laying it’s golden eggs.
At some point ( probably quite quickly ) the revenue from the Ulez charge is going to reduce markedly as people swap to Ulez compliant vehicles

So what then ?
Obviously some sort of charge is going to be introduced to replace the lost revenues.
The catchment area can’t be extended as come August the boundary of Greater London will be reached.
The easiest would be to ramp up the cost of the charge from £12.50 to ??? £15 ? £20 ?
Easy to justify ( we’ve made great gains but some people just won’t change blah blah)
But that’s only a short term fix as again people will switch to compliant cars reducing revenue.
They could I suppose tighten the emissions belt ? Again using the clean air/health argument ( we’ve made great gains on air quality but need tighter controls to make it even better blah blah )
The con census on here seems to be road charging - but that ( I assume) would need either a lot more infrastructure installing or all vehicles to be fitted with a tracker of some sort. I can imagine there being an enormous amount of resistance to that, in that everyone has to pay, not just those evil polluters in non Ulez cars, and also from a civil liberties point of view.
Or there could be a widening of the congestion charge scheme where if you’re in the new Ulez area you pay say £5 a day , come inside the existing Ulez zone that’s now £10 a day , come into the existing congestion charging zone in the centre of London that’s £20.
At the moment Ulez is quite an easy sell as it’s always linked to health and you can garner support by demonising a small section of society (those evil polluting non Ulez cars poisoning your children) a tactic beloved of some leaders both past and present, but if you can’t do that , then it’s abundantly clear it’s just a cash grab to be blown on your latest vanity project it’s a much harder sell.
So to get to the nub of it - how do you think Ulez revenue will be replaced and what will be the justification for it ?

Edited by Rockettvr on Thursday 6th April 13:35

It's already outlined. More vehicles will be brought into the ULEZ remit and the CCZ is set to expand outwards. Black boxes that then levy per mile based on when is and where is best for you to drive and bill directly for safety infractions will be offered as a means to avoid the daily fixed fees.

[CoolHands]

braddo said:

Bless, you want to have a nice moan in an echo chamber and I'm spoiling your experience?

And on you go

[NomduJour]

Black boxes are a massively bigger hurdle than ANPR (quite excited about becoming a criminal though, either way they want to do it).