Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?

[CarbonXKR]

InitialDave said:

My opinion is that a RWD-biased setup which feeds in front drive as the rear end loosens up is the optimum AWD system for someone who isn't a monkey brought up on FWD stuff,

This is what I'm going for Dave, the Jaguar system that works 90:10 rear biased and feeds in to the front as and when needed. Along with the Sottozeros I'm hoping I don't get stuck much over the winter and can have a bit of fun with it too when suitable
Or do I need to buy a Legacy with summer tyres ......

[blade7]

DoubleD said:

blade7 said:

You have misinterpreted me. My comments on this thread related to me using my A4 quattro. Never driven up north in winter so can't comment on that. But IMO anyone that feels they need winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, needs some driving tuition.

How will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

Does someone have to wipe your backside for you too?

[DoubleD]

blade7 said:

DoubleD said:

blade7 said:

You have misinterpreted me. My comments on this thread related to me using my A4 quattro. Never driven up north in winter so can't comment on that. But IMO anyone that feels they need winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, needs some driving tuition.

How will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

Does someone have to wipe your backside for you too?

No im fine.

So how will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

[InitialDave]

blade7 said:

You have misinterpreted me. My comments on this thread related to me using my A4 quattro. Never driven up north in winter so can't comment on that. But IMO anyone that feels they need winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, needs some driving tuition.

Ok, apologies. Thats fair enough if you never get serious winter conditions where you are, but I've driven an A4 Quattro in the midlands in winter on performance summer tyres, and assuming you're using similar tyres, the AWD doesn't work miracles, better tyres on a 2WD are definitely safer. The Quattro can probably keep up without having to overexert yourself, but it's artificially hard work, and an equivalently competent driver in a winter-tyred Quattro under similar conditions is long gone.

[RobM77]

blade7 said:

Caddyshack said:

No, I was responding to the person who quoted that winter tyres are only beneficial for less than a month, they are not, they are beneficial in cold weather.

I've safely negotiated cold weather for years without winter tyres, how would they have benefited me?

I’ve never used my seatbelts for their intended purpose in 24 years of driving on the road and 17 years of racing. I’ll still be wearing mine tomorrow though!

[CarbonXKR]

blade7 said:

You have misinterpreted me. My comments on this thread related to me using my A4 quattro. Never driven up north in winter so can't comment on that. But IMO anyone that needs winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, should get some driving tuition.

Edited by blade7 on Saturday 20th October 00:06

The need for winters up North (or South if you get a spell of cold weather) is by choice and logic. Nothing wrong with extra tuition and I would happily get some lessons if things started going a bit wrong on my travels.
If you haven't driven with winters on (which is the way you come across), then you won't appreciate the benefit. Those that have are in a better position than you to tell me about it and perhaps it's you that needs extra tuition.......
My winters cost me the same as my excess and will hopefully help me to stop rather than sliding in to the car/person/animal etc. that has crossed my path. AWD/4WD won't help me one jot in an emergency stop.....

[blade7]

DoubleD said:

No im fine.

So how will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

Did I say anything about reducing braking distance? You sound like a tailgater, perhaps you could learn to plan ahead....

[DoubleD]

blade7 said:

DoubleD said:

No im fine.

So how will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

Did I say anything about reducing braking distance? You sound like a tailgater, perhaps you could learn to plan ahead....

In what way do I sound like a tailgater?

[blade7]

CarbonXKR said:

If you haven't driven with winters on (which is the way you come across), then you won't appreciate the benefit. Those that have are in a better position than you to tell me about it and perhaps it's you that needs extra tuition.......

Perhaps you will remind me when I told you about winter tyres.

[CarbonXKR]

blade7 said:

CarbonXKR said:

If you haven't driven with winters on (which is the way you come across), then you won't appreciate the benefit. Those that have are in a better position than you to tell me about it and perhaps it's you that needs extra tuition.......

Perhaps you will remind me when I told you about winter tyres.

Really? You forgot already?

blade7 said:

But IMO anyone that needs winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, should get some driving tuition.

Edited by blade7 on Saturday 20th October 00:06

[blade7]

CarbonXKR said:

blade7 said:

CarbonXKR said:

If you haven't driven with winters on (which is the way you come across), then you won't appreciate the benefit. Those that have are in a better position than you to tell me about it and perhaps it's you that needs extra tuition.......

Perhaps you will remind me when I told you about winter tyres.

Really? You forgot already?

blade7 said:

But IMO anyone that needs winters on a modern AWD saloon when it's a bit chilly outside, should get some driving tuition.

It was a generalisation, but fair play to you for coming out and owning it.

[Mr Tidy]

ericmcn said:

depends on how 'quick' is to you, for most of the time it is sure fast enough to keep up to pace with (and overtake) others on the road, how fast is 1.3seconds? that the difference between the SpecB 0-60 and these, probably less than that in fact. One thing I dont have to worry about is maintenance issues which is always something which would put me off a nice 6 cylinder BMW.

BMW 330i MSport 0-60 6.0s
BMW 850CSI 0-60 5.7s
Golf R 2012 0-60 5.7s
WRX Sti 0-60 5.2s

You're raving about a Legacy Spec B - so why do you quote the 0-60 time of a WRX Sti?

Is it maybe because according to Autocar magazine the quoted 0-60 time for the Legacy Spec B was 6.5s for the saloon and 6.6s for the Estate? That looks pretty pedestrian compared to the other cars you've quoted.

[gizlaroc]

blade7 said:

DoubleD said:

No im fine.

So how will driving tuition reduce a braking distance?

Did I say anything about reducing braking distance? You sound like a tailgater, perhaps you could learn to plan ahead....

But that is not the point, it is the tt that cuts you up, the person that steps out into the road in front you, you can't plan ahead because you can't plan what others will do.

The difference when it gets to around 6ºc or less on winter tyres is quite remarkable, especially when you jump straight from summers to winters.

When we start to get sleet and patches of ice they completely change things.

The problem for me is, when we do start to get some snow we have all these people saying "drive to the conditions" which generally means grinding the country to a halt, where as if it was law that you can only drive in snow on winters the country would carry on as if it was a bit of rain.

Last March I had to cancel appointments as the M11 was full of tts trying to 'drive to conditions' on summer tyres in the snow, they failed. I could have gone down it at 60mph no problem at all and carried on with work if it wasn't for that attitude.

[anonymous-user]

Mr Tidy said:

You're raving about a Legacy Spec B - so why do you quote the 0-60 time of a WRX Sti?

Is it maybe because according to Autocar magazine the quoted 0-60 time for the Legacy Spec B was 6.5s for the saloon and 6.6s for the Estate? That looks pretty pedestrian compared to the other cars you've quoted.

Not forgetting the N52 is pretty bombproof compared the 20mpg grenade fitted to the Subaru

[tonyb1968]

ericmcn said:

tonyb1968 said:

Incorrect but hey, you still need to figure out where the AWD benefits and where it doesn't, hence the question above is actually a false statement.

incorrect? well based on the beast from the east weather the Legacy was strolling around in summer tyres whilst mostly everyone else (assuing in summers also) were having a hard time in the fwd/rwd. I saw 2 BMWs try unsuccessfully to navigate a steep-ish incline and they ended up going back the other way, probably the tip of the iceberg and there were many more stories like that across the SE.

Based on the fact you still don't understand the limitations of AWD and make assumptions that its far better than it is.
Lets get a few facts straight to start with.

1. Winter tyres just dont benefit a car in snow but also in lower temperatures.
2. AWD does not give you better lateral grip or make your car handle better (hundreds of Subaru dirvers who have crashed their cars thinking this will happily tell you its true, no extra anything except damage).
3. AWD main benefit is off the line traction, once moving there is very little difference.
4. Tyres make the biggest difference as that is what connects you to the road.

So bearing all that in mind, the hill I live on has a nice 30 degree gradient, my factory fitted tyres on my FWD car with its gucci traction control system happily got me up that in the snow (there are also bends thrown in), ok they are m&s marked but not snow flake marked so basically summer tyres, and I did better than most in the several inches of snow without awd.
We could go on about tc systems benefitting cars like Subaru (hence they now have tc on their cars), you may not understand though

Edited by tonyb1968 on Saturday 20th October 11:39

Edited by tonyb1968 on Saturday 20th October 11:39

[Finlandia]

From the Swedish edition of Auto, Motor & Sport.

Continental Premiumcontact 5 205/55-16 summer tyres vs Continental Wintercontact TS 860 205/55-16 winter tyres

Summer conditions.
Braking from 100kph: P - 35.7m, W - 42.6m
Track average speed: P - 120.7kph. W - 118kph

Wet road approx 7 degrees.
Braking from 80kph: P - 36.6m, W - 31.8m
Track average speed: P - 72.9kph, W - 72.8kph
Aquaplaning speed: P - 74.6kph, W - 79.3kph

Snow.
Braking from 50kph: P - 52.7m, W - 28.4m
Track average speed: P - 8.0kph, W - 55.9kph

[TooMany2cvs]

Finlandia said:

From the Swedish edition of Auto, Motor & Sport.

Continental Premiumcontact 5 205/55-16 summer tyres vs Continental Wintercontact TS 860 205/55-16 winter tyres

Summer conditions.
Braking from 100kph: P - 35.7m, W - 42.6m
Track average speed: P - 120.7kph. W - 118kph

Wet road approx 7 degrees.
Braking from 80kph: P - 36.6m, W - 31.8m
Track average speed: P - 72.9kph, W - 72.8kph
Aquaplaning speed: P - 74.6kph, W - 79.3kph

Snow.
Braking from 50kph: P - 52.7m, W - 28.4m
Track average speed: P - 8.0kph, W - 55.9kph

They're the most telling bits.

[Pica-Pica]

TooMany2cvs said:

Finlandia said:

From the Swedish edition of Auto, Motor & Sport.

Continental Premiumcontact 5 205/55-16 summer tyres vs Continental Wintercontact TS 860 205/55-16 winter tyres

Summer conditions.
Braking from 100kph: P - 35.7m, W - 42.6m
Track average speed: P - 120.7kph. W - 118kph

Wet road approx 7 degrees.
Braking from 80kph: P - 36.6m, W - 31.8m
Track average speed: P - 72.9kph, W - 72.8kph
Aquaplaning speed: P - 74.6kph, W - 79.3kph

Snow.
Braking from 50kph: P - 52.7m, W - 28.4m
Track average speed: P - 8.0kph, W - 55.9kph

They're the most telling bits.

Maybe, but I think the wet road at 7 degrees is the clincher for most UK drivers. The snow conditions are the ‘backstop’ (to be topical).

[TooMany2cvs]

Pica-Pica said:

Maybe, but I think the wet road at 7 degrees is the clincher for most UK drivers. The snow conditions are the ‘backstop’ (to be topical).

Oh, absolutely.

And the gap only opens up the colder it gets.

[Finlandia]

TooMany2cvs said:

Pica-Pica said:

Maybe, but I think the wet road at 7 degrees is the clincher for most UK drivers. The snow conditions are the ‘backstop’ (to be topical).

Oh, absolutely.

And the gap only opens up the colder it gets.

Like those evenings when it's 7 degrees and drizzling, next morning you're away to work and it's -1