RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
I did say cool to a 4x4 person.
Lets face it to Jo Public these are stupid ridiculous cars:
A non car person might even refer to them as Noddy or clowns cars.
However I'd rather hope to a "car" person they are extremely cool. And to further this hope, I'd like to thing the average PistonHead user would think them the height of cool.
So why on Earth can it not be a similar principle with 4x4's?
e.g. A very uncool car brand generally. But anyone into 4x4's and off road should be saying "cool 4x4" to something like this:
And I agree, I think they're pretty cool as per your selection, based on my own interpretation of what I think cool isLets face it to Jo Public these are stupid ridiculous cars:
A non car person might even refer to them as Noddy or clowns cars.
However I'd rather hope to a "car" person they are extremely cool. And to further this hope, I'd like to thing the average PistonHead user would think them the height of cool.
So why on Earth can it not be a similar principle with 4x4's?
e.g. A very uncool car brand generally. But anyone into 4x4's and off road should be saying "cool 4x4" to something like this:
And to me, the new Defender is cool. But a Wrangler is not cool.
Capability doesn't come into it in that factor.. its either cool or it isn't and I couldn't possibly write down why something is cool or not, it just is, or isn't.
Of course just being cool won't get you onto my driveway either.
Pintofbest said:
300bhp/ton said:
2. Off road, sitting very close to the side of the vehicle and noting that the body work isn't as wide as the vehicle track, i.e. the wheels stick out a little. Allows you to easily lean out while driving and eyeball the front and rear wheel with ease. Something very very useful off road when you are driving close to trees or over large boulders/logs, etc.
.
Wouldn't that fail an MOT? .
deadtom said:
Sorry 300 but I can confirm that it would not be viable to fit live axles to the new defender due to its underpinnings; the hardware just wouldn't fit under / around what is there already.
Ta. I haven't been under one, so don't know. Are the underpinnings similar to the L319 with a dual chassis? A.J.M said:
At least Land Rover are taking the testing seriously if they have taken it from Moab, to Kenya and other places as well.
Well they are taking the marketing seriously..... they wouldn't be all stickered up and released in press photos from JLR if it was primarily only testing. 
A.J.M said:
The new Defender has to pass crash and emissions regulations for all world markets, something the old one couldn’t do.
Yes and no, the old one was sold the world over bar the USA for the most part. So it could. But that is by the by. However these regulations are the same for everyone, not just LR. So not really a reason for anything really.Hitch said:
Again, you're pointing to things that are useful maybe 0.5% of the time.
And where are you getting that number from. FFS I get grief for posting actual numbers, yet everyone else gets to make them up and claim them as irrefutable fact???BTW - I suspect you missed the first sentence in my reply to you. It might help with context
Hitch said:
I never see people three-up in a Defender, ever.
Well it does happen.300bhp/ton said:
ern no. Standard vehicle. The 90/110 have the same body width as a Series II, IIa & III. But use a slightly wider axle. So the axle sticks out from the body. LR fitted wheel spats/arches to cover them to keep them legal. But it has the benefit that when you stick your head out of the window you get a clear view of the wheel placement.
I agree with you - very useful - the modern approach is of course this:
which will of course never go wrong
it is one of the things I like about the RR (classic) that it has those very straight sides...
however, as we all know
you should actually get out and walk the route first anyway!Tom_Spotley_When said:
So based on this. Let's be generous, and say that 2000 people own an older Land Rover, a beat up Land Rover and a new/newer Land Rover and attend one of your ALRC club events.
So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
So while you are being all so clever. How many people do you know who owns and buys new 4x4's more frequently than one per 4 years??So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
The old one never sat a crash test.
They would perform shocking if they tried it, they don’t roll over and offer much, if any protection.
1.2 million km of testing. That’s fairly significant.
I like the old one, but I wouldn’t dream of owning one as a daily, my Disco 3 s
ts from a vast height over it for all my needs.
The markets moved on. That car didn’t.
It was in dire need of a proper refresh by the time the Puma version came about. It never got it.
This is a chance to make it fit for the modern world and address many of the short comings of the old model in a package that’s got worldwide appeal and sell more than 25k examples a year.
They would perform shocking if they tried it, they don’t roll over and offer much, if any protection.
1.2 million km of testing. That’s fairly significant.
I like the old one, but I wouldn’t dream of owning one as a daily, my Disco 3 s
ts from a vast height over it for all my needs.The markets moved on. That car didn’t.
It was in dire need of a proper refresh by the time the Puma version came about. It never got it.
This is a chance to make it fit for the modern world and address many of the short comings of the old model in a package that’s got worldwide appeal and sell more than 25k examples a year.
akirk said:
exactly - the new ones are there as tow vehicles - how many of those new vehicles are being used aggressively off-road?
Some will go laning, especially the newer Defenders or when they were new a handful of years back. The biggest issue with a D3/4, RRS, L322, L405 is they are often a little too fat and long for many UK green lanes. And this makes them prone to damage something like a 90 won't suffer on the same lane.Freelnder 2, Evoque, Disco Sport all rather lack the low range and ground clearance for some lanes. They are all far more capable than they may appear, but this is likely to limit the appeal to use them off road whilst newish. Because if the owner wanted to do such a thing, they probably would have opted for a different vehicle in the first place.
But lets flip this around. How many Porsche GT4's or BMW M4 Competition packs actually get entered into a race series or even a hill sprint? I suspect even less than the 4x4's that are used off road.
So do you have a beef with road going racers? If not, why have you got an issue with some people wanting a road going off road designed 4x4?
And as said previously many times, newer vehicles in places like Oz and the USA, where they happen to have vastly more open space and much easier access to it do tend to go off road a lot more than their equivalent counter parts in the UK.
And also lets not forget if car makers don't make something new -- it won't then exist in the used market in a few years time. Not every buyer of a model or even every customer of a dealership is buying brand new.
akirk said:
the vast majority of those people own Disco 3 / 4 as probably the best all-around car ever built by LR - and the majority of those people are not upgrading to the D5 but waiting for the new Defender in the (probably realistic) view that it is the spiritual successor to the D4
This is kind of my point. This new Defender appears to be an ideal definition of a Discovery for the 2020 market place.But that doesn't mean it really is "Land Rover" in the heritage and traditional sense of the brand. I really don't get why people are moaning at me wanting something different to the other 10 vehicles JLR already make. I've not slated any of them!!!! I just wish this Defender was going to be something more than a re-branded D4.
300bhp/ton said:
Yes and no, the old one was sold the world over bar the USA for the most part. So it could. But that is by the by. However these regulations are the same for everyone, not just LR. So not really a reason for anything really.
You need to look at where they were sold in viable numbers. Then read up on the British Empore and the basics of trade embargo’s and closed markets. There is a rather remarkable correlation between overseas sales into specific markets and when those markets became autonomous to the British Governments.
It’s the same story in the domestic market. The correlation between the privatisation of the utilities and becoming free to buy the right tool for the job and the slump in LR sales to the utilities.
The British Government couldn’t even keep forcing the MOD to buy LR products in the end.
The last few years were free market economics and they only sold about 15000/year and guess who bought them? The lifestyle market. Not serious off-roaders. The very people who will be buying the new Defender but in ten times the volume and for magnitudes more margin.
Hitch said:
Just to add; a chap I know who does Land Rover product launches said that a LWB and SWB are likely and that commercial and pick up versions were being considered. LWB pick up with an SVR 5.0 would be quite the thing!
Think this got missed?How likely is this though I wonder?
300bhp/ton said:
And it's good to see you cherry picked a variant with ARB's. Something that not all of the late model Defenders had.
so you agree then, that the major influence on cross axle performance is in fact cross axle stiffness and not what sort of suspension is fitted!Late model defenders have ARBs so they can be driven around on the road without their occupants being sick, and so they have "poor" (relatively) cross axle performance. So your argument "they need to fit beam axles to get decent cross axle performance" is proven to be completely false. If JLR fitted beam axles to the new defender simply to get "more" travel, then they would also have to fit a suspension system with a very low cross axle stiffness in order for the vehicle to actually use that additional travel capability. So they would have a brand new car, that handled like one from 1984, and one that nobody in the right mind would buy after a test drive at the dealers.......
The reason JLR have fitted air suspension and active anti-roll bars to its more expensive models is precisely to try to square that circle, those adaptive systems can provide high cross axle stiffness for prop-ing the body up when going round a roundabout, and yet, soft off and attempt to provide a low stiffness when the vehicle is flexing over cross axles at low speed when off road.
One of the reasons the old defender was so cramped inside is also because lots of travel means big wheel houses, which eats into a lot of useable space in the body. Things like Disco's and RR have a smaller travel capability not because they are limited by the suspension architecture, but because that travel is deliberately limited by design!
300bhp/ton said:
So while you are being all so clever. How many people do you know who owns and buys new 4x4's more frequently than one per 4 years??
At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
My wife.At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
6 new LRs over past 14 years.
She doesn’t have a beard or a live rear axle.
A.J.M said:
The old one never sat a crash test.
They would perform shocking if they tried it, they don’t roll over and offer much, if any protection.
1.2 million km of testing. That’s fairly significant.
I like the old one, but I wouldn’t dream of owning one as a daily, my Disco 3 sts from a vast height over it for all my needs.
The markets moved on. That car didn’t.
It was in dire need of a proper refresh by the time the Puma version came about. It never got it.
This is a chance to make it fit for the modern world and address many of the short comings of the old model in a package that’s got worldwide appeal and sell more than 25k examples a year.
Thanks. But maybe I'm not speaking English here, either that or nobody else is.They would perform shocking if they tried it, they don’t roll over and offer much, if any protection.
1.2 million km of testing. That’s fairly significant.
I like the old one, but I wouldn’t dream of owning one as a daily, my Disco 3 s
ts from a vast height over it for all my needs.The markets moved on. That car didn’t.
It was in dire need of a proper refresh by the time the Puma version came about. It never got it.
This is a chance to make it fit for the modern world and address many of the short comings of the old model in a package that’s got worldwide appeal and sell more than 25k examples a year.
Where have I said negatives things about a D3? And where have I said they should have kept the old model (Defender) in production?
All I'm saying is I'd like them not to build 11 similar vehicles instead of 10, i.e. build at least one that is a bit different in it's design and capability. And if they aren't targeting the utility market, it would be nice if they targeted the recreational market instead of the luxury market.
They’re targeting pretty much every recreational market with the exception of the one where people drive over massive boulders or through swamps.
Think how many forms of outdoor recreation there are? Thousands? Think how many need a dedicated, specialist vehicle for off roading at a cheap budget? 1.
You need to get out more and understand that the majority of people who partake in outdoor recreational activities don’t want and never wanted an old Defender. What they want is a comfortable, safe road car that can take all their kit and do some basic off-roading to reach their objective.
You seem to live in a total fantasy world. Which I’m sure is nice given that reality can be hard work at times, like now.
Think how many forms of outdoor recreation there are? Thousands? Think how many need a dedicated, specialist vehicle for off roading at a cheap budget? 1.
You need to get out more and understand that the majority of people who partake in outdoor recreational activities don’t want and never wanted an old Defender. What they want is a comfortable, safe road car that can take all their kit and do some basic off-roading to reach their objective.
You seem to live in a total fantasy world. Which I’m sure is nice given that reality can be hard work at times, like now.
Brooking10 said:
300bhp/ton said:
So while you are being all so clever. How many people do you know who owns and buys new 4x4's more frequently than one per 4 years??
At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
My wife.At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
6 new LRs over past 14 years.
She doesn’t have a beard or a live rear axle.
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