Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[braddo]

flemke said:

...

Also, "This is going to be the fastest car in the world" and "No-one's going to get anywhere near the performance of this vehicle."

I think that generally, topics such as this focus too much on 1-lap shootouts or a run up the strip.

An example that often springs to mind is the Nissan GTR, which might have amazing pace for a lap (of whatever circuit) but can it even complete 2 consecutive hard laps of the ring without some issue? I wonder how many track miles the Nissan would tend to cover at a typical track day compared to, say, a 911 GT3 or a V6 Exige.

MaxT commented that the P1 can basically keep lapping the ring until it runs out of fuel. In that context, of being able to drive to track, lap all day (faster than anyone else) and drive home, perhaps Ron's claims quoted above are not so exaggerated.

[flemke]

braddo said:

flemke said:

...

Also, "This is going to be the fastest car in the world" and "No-one's going to get anywhere near the performance of this vehicle."

I think that generally, topics such as this focus too much on 1-lap shootouts or a run up the strip.

An example that often springs to mind is the Nissan GTR, which might have amazing pace for a lap (of whatever circuit) but can it even complete 2 consecutive hard laps of the ring without some issue? I wonder how many track miles the Nissan would tend to cover at a typical track day compared to, say, a 911 GT3 or a V6 Exige.

MaxT commented that the P1 can basically keep lapping the ring until it runs out of fuel. In that context, of being able to drive to track, lap all day (faster than anyone else) and drive home, perhaps Ron's claims quoted above are not so exaggerated.

Relative to the Ferrari, you are probably right.
Relative to the Porsche, it would surprise me if the P1 were more robustly, or even as robustly, engineered. No disrespect to the McLaren engineers, but VAG is simply so deep and experienced as a car-making organisation that a company with effectively 2 years of car producing experience is not going to have as many bases covered.

[Dr JonboyG]

flemke said:

But if you order a car with more options, that too costs more.

If less is more, how can more be more?

These car companies must be getting their sums wrong.

Not when the equations are designed to answer the question "how can we charge even more money for our products and still get people to queue up to buy them?"

[Silver Smudger]

thegreenhell said:

flemke said:

PGNCerbera said:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082766_ron-den...

Good link, PGN.

Although they completely misinterpreted what he said about the Top Gear lap. He said that he had personally driven it 10 seconds faster than the Star in a Reasonably Priced Car lap record, not that it was 10 seconds faster than the overall Top Gear lap record.

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

[andyps]

Silver Smudger said:

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

I've just read Alan Henry's book, Last Train From Yokkaichi, and he certainly implies that to be the case!

[Streetrod]

flemke said:

braddo said:

flemke said:

...

Also, "This is going to be the fastest car in the world" and "No-one's going to get anywhere near the performance of this vehicle."

I think that generally, topics such as this focus too much on 1-lap shootouts or a run up the strip.

An example that often springs to mind is the Nissan GTR, which might have amazing pace for a lap (of whatever circuit) but can it even complete 2 consecutive hard laps of the ring without some issue? I wonder how many track miles the Nissan would tend to cover at a typical track day compared to, say, a 911 GT3 or a V6 Exige.

MaxT commented that the P1 can basically keep lapping the ring until it runs out of fuel. In that context, of being able to drive to track, lap all day (faster than anyone else) and drive home, perhaps Ron's claims quoted above are not so exaggerated.

Relative to the Ferrari, you are probably right.
Relative to the Porsche, it would surprise me if the P1 were more robustly, or even as robustly, engineered. No disrespect to the McLaren engineers, but VAG is simply so deep and experienced as a car-making organisation that a company with effectively 2 years of car producing experience is not going to have as many bases covered.

It that the same robust engineering at Porsche that produced the recent GT3 engine fiasco and the 918 suspension failures that required a recall?? I am not looking to pick a fight here but Porsche does has a rather lengthy history of engineering issues, mainly 911 based.

McLaren on the other hand you have to admire considering their lack of years of exp in road car production have done pretty well

Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 7th January 17:36

[DeuxCentCinq]

flemke said:

But if you order a car with more options, that too costs more.

If less is more, how can more be more?

These car companies must be getting their sums wrong.

I think Renault are the only company who have seen sense with this, and (certainly used to) charge less for the lighter "Cup" versions of their RenaultSport cars.

[DeuxCentCinq]

flemke said:

One piece of modern tech? Without a doubt, ABS, which is not even that modern.

Yes, and double yes.

Everyone I've asked about putting this on my car thinks I'm mad, but it's top of my wish list for this year's improvements.

[Streetrod]

Ron may have said some rather stupid things in the past but that does not stop me having a major need for one of these in my life.





And who would have thought it could look so good in satin blue

[flemke]

andyps said:

Silver Smudger said:

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

I've just read Alan Henry's book, Last Train From Yokkaichi, and he certainly implies that to be the case!

You may recall a certain mishap leading up to the Australian GP in, I think it was, late '93. McLaren had an F1 down there to showcase it, as production had just commenced. Ron thought he would do a little demo around the circuit, to show folks what the car could do.
Suffice to say that the lap did not go as planned, as in, it was not completed.
Within the company, I believe that the boss is thought to be at his best when he is occupying the back seat of an automobile.

[flemke]

Streetrod said:

flemke said:

braddo said:

flemke said:

...

Also, "This is going to be the fastest car in the world" and "No-one's going to get anywhere near the performance of this vehicle."

I think that generally, topics such as this focus too much on 1-lap shootouts or a run up the strip.

An example that often springs to mind is the Nissan GTR, which might have amazing pace for a lap (of whatever circuit) but can it even complete 2 consecutive hard laps of the ring without some issue? I wonder how many track miles the Nissan would tend to cover at a typical track day compared to, say, a 911 GT3 or a V6 Exige.

MaxT commented that the P1 can basically keep lapping the ring until it runs out of fuel. In that context, of being able to drive to track, lap all day (faster than anyone else) and drive home, perhaps Ron's claims quoted above are not so exaggerated.

Relative to the Ferrari, you are probably right.
Relative to the Porsche, it would surprise me if the P1 were more robustly, or even as robustly, engineered. No disrespect to the McLaren engineers, but VAG is simply so deep and experienced as a car-making organisation that a company with effectively 2 years of car producing experience is not going to have as many bases covered.

It that the same robust engineering at Porsche that produced the recent GT3 engine fiasco and the 918 suspension failures that required a recall?? I am not looking to pick a fight here but Porsche does has a rather lengthy history of engineering issues, mainly 911 based.

McLaren on the other hand you have to admire considering their lack of years of exp in road car production have done pretty well

Yes, indeed, one must respect how well McLaren have done w the 12C, 650S and P1 considering their lack of years of exp in road car production. No question.

The snag is that, in the absolute rather than relative to their lack of experience, in fact they don't have much experience in mass (or even batch) production, nor in maintenance, servicing, or especially long-term, multi-factor durability.

If I had to put numbers on it, I'd say that Porsche (not to mention VAG) has 100 times as much experience in this stuff as McLaren has. That is a finger-in-the-air guess, but it's going to be that sort of thing.
On that scale of disproportion, if the typical McLaren employee or process were 5 times as efficient or effective as its Porsche counterpart, Porsche would still have a 20-1 advantage in institutional knowledge, and that is before one considers its financial advantage.

Porsche to be sure have made mistakes, at the end of some of which I have found myself. They are a big, politically-influenced, bureaucratic, profit-driven monolith. Nonetheless, they still have a core of guys who are petrolheads, as an organisation they know a hell of a lot about cars and motoring, and their end of the market demands at least some pretensions of quality. If their cars were to fall apart after 25,000 miles, they would be out of business.

McLaren have a lot of great people and have made some wonderful cars, including the one that to me is the greatest ever, but I think it is pretty clear that they started McLaren Automotive at a huge disadvantage to Porsche (and to others), and its going to take them, as it would take anyone, more than 5 years to overcome it.

[Animal]

DeuxCentCinq said:

flemke said:

But if you order a car with more options, that too costs more.

If less is more, how can more be more?

These car companies must be getting their sums wrong.

I think Renault are the only company who have seen sense with this, and (certainly used to) charge less for the lighter "Cup" versions of their RenaultSport cars.

If you consider the Porsche GT3 (RS?) or Ferrari 458 Speciale to be their respective firm's halo products then 'adding lightness' and charging loads more money makes perfect sense, especially to their marketing teams.

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

andyps said:

Silver Smudger said:

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

I've just read Alan Henry's book, Last Train From Yokkaichi, and he certainly implies that to be the case!

You may recall a certain mishap leading up to the Australian GP in, I think it was, late '93. McLaren had an F1 down there to showcase it, as production had just commenced. Ron thought he would do a little demo around the circuit, to show folks what the car could do.
Suffice to say that the lap did not go as planned, as in, it was not completed.
Within the company, I believe that the boss is thought to be at his best when he is occupying the back seat of an automobile.

It was there on a SHELL promotional tour - I thought the 'unfinished lap' was at Suzuka (?)

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

andyps said:

Silver Smudger said:

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

I've just read Alan Henry's book, Last Train From Yokkaichi, and he certainly implies that to be the case!

You may recall a certain mishap leading up to the Australian GP in, I think it was, late '93. McLaren had an F1 down there to showcase it, as production had just commenced. Ron thought he would do a little demo around the circuit, to show folks what the car could do.
Suffice to say that the lap did not go as planned, as in, it was not completed.
Within the company, I believe that the boss is thought to be at his best when he is occupying the back seat of an automobile.

It was there on a SHELL promotional tour - I thought the 'unfinished lap' was at Suzuka (?)

You know more about this stuff than I do. All I know is that the car was going to be displayed for the entire weekend and Ron's adventure necessitated some frantic long-distance flights to and from Woking to fetch replacement parts in time for the "static" display.

[andyps]

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

andyps said:

Silver Smudger said:

So Ron Dennis can only make his 'Fastest car in the world, ever' go about as fast as the Stig in a 2.2 Alfa Brera? Ron must be really crap behind the wheel!

I've just read Alan Henry's book, Last Train From Yokkaichi, and he certainly implies that to be the case!

You may recall a certain mishap leading up to the Australian GP in, I think it was, late '93. McLaren had an F1 down there to showcase it, as production had just commenced. Ron thought he would do a little demo around the circuit, to show folks what the car could do.
Suffice to say that the lap did not go as planned, as in, it was not completed.
Within the company, I believe that the boss is thought to be at his best when he is occupying the back seat of an automobile.

It was there on a SHELL promotional tour - I thought the 'unfinished lap' was at Suzuka (?)

You know more about this stuff than I do. All I know is that the car was going to be displayed for the entire weekend and Ron's adventure necessitated some frantic long-distance flights to and from Woking to fetch replacement parts in time for the "static" display.

Sorry for all the quotes. According to Alan Henry it was Suzuka and a car which was supposed to be at the following weekend's Hong Kong motor show - the car was returned to Woking and back on duty by the end of the following week.

[iva cosworth]

Saw these 2 today.

Adrian Newey's



One of my favourite race cars ever.

[dudleybloke]

Nice!
Got any pics of the jag to the left?

[iva cosworth]

Nope.


Some Pork too ?



Another McLaren ?



Awesome to see that driven up the centre of the show ,albeit slowly

[dudleybloke]

Superb!

[Rich_W]

Is that really Neweys? I know he's had some quick stuff in his time


To Flemke.

Did I miss the thread/posts where you talked about taking delivery of your P1? Photos etc?