RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
Thanks. But maybe I'm not speaking English here, either that or nobody else is.
Where have I said negatives things about a D3? And where have I said they should have kept the old model (Defender) in production?
All I'm saying is I'd like them not to build 11 similar vehicles instead of 10, i.e. build at least one that is a bit different in it's design and capability. And if they aren't targeting the utility market, it would be nice if they targeted the recreational market instead of the luxury market.
And how do you know they aren’t targeting the utility market?Where have I said negatives things about a D3? And where have I said they should have kept the old model (Defender) in production?
All I'm saying is I'd like them not to build 11 similar vehicles instead of 10, i.e. build at least one that is a bit different in it's design and capability. And if they aren't targeting the utility market, it would be nice if they targeted the recreational market instead of the luxury market.
Or the recreational market?
No one knows until they take the covers off and show the damn thing to the world.
But it’s curious that having never seen, sat in or driven this new model. You have already written it off as nothing more than an Evoque or similar.
If that’s the general attitude, they will sell millions of it as the Luddites will avoid it so the rest of us can enjoy it.
The Gall Boys. Great videos. Max_Torque said:
Since the turn of the century, classic JLR markets for utility vehicles have been pretty much completely stolen by cheaper, more robust far east products. With the military turning it's back on softskin vehicles (due to the IED risks), JLR simply didn't have a viable revenue stream for a new utility vehicle.
In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
Fair enough.In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
Edited by Max_Torque on Tuesday 4th June 13:26
I am not bemoaning the death of some icon, is what it is and the world moves on.
My point is only that there is large a market for fun off-road vehicles and as a purchaser of these things, it would be nice to have choice. I can't help but feel that JLR execution of the Defender, vs say Jeep's execution of the Wrangler, is not great. Maybe the new one will be an awesome spiritual successor to the D4 and it will probably sell loads to people who want a D4 successor and find the D5 s
t (which it is, I just don't get it), but what does that do to the gap left by the actual market for an enthusiast car that the Defender used to fill? It will be taken by Jeep, who are currently importing 200+ Rubicons per year into the UK.Also, with a product line up including 10+ variants of a Soft Roader SUV, why do JLR need another one? The Strategy of leaving one of the top 3 (Land Rover, Toyota and Jeep) brands for remote capable off-road vehicles without a remote capable vehicle seems a bit odd.
It seems like you work at JLR, potentially take this as client feedback: It feels like you are hanging up your boots and that the only choice for people like me is a 70 series land cruiser or a Jeep wrangler
300bhp/ton said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
So based on this. Let's be generous, and say that 2000 people own an older Land Rover, a beat up Land Rover and a new/newer Land Rover and attend one of your ALRC club events.
So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
So while you are being all so clever. How many people do you know who owns and buys new 4x4's more frequently than one per 4 years??So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
Couple of guys at the gym. One tows his rally car with a Disco 5, he had a Disco 4 before that. Others get a new RRS when their 3 year lease term's up because it's easier than running an old one.
My dad's best mate was a serial Land Rover owner. Had a succession of Classic Range Rovers (including a CSK that was written off), at least 2 P38s, and a couple of L322s. Always got rid when they were out of warranty.
My father in law gets a new SUV every 3 years, by which time he's generally covered close to 100k work miles. I can't imagine doing that in a Defender, can you?
Tom_Spotley_When said:
300bhp/ton said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
So based on this. Let's be generous, and say that 2000 people own an older Land Rover, a beat up Land Rover and a new/newer Land Rover and attend one of your ALRC club events.
So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
So while you are being all so clever. How many people do you know who owns and buys new 4x4's more frequently than one per 4 years??So that's a potential market of 2000 new cars that will cater to extreme off-road enthusiasts, which is probably a fair assessment of people who join the ALRC. New cars are all that JLR care about selling, because that's what makes them money.
But those people don't buy a new car each year. Based in your Uncle's example, they buy one new car every 4 years. Let's assume that, over time, an equal number buy a new car on equal years, because otherwise the maths are impossible to work out.
Of that 2,000, it seems like there's a potential market for maybe 500 cars/year.
Not really massively viable, is it?
At least I've added some substance to what I've said. What have you added above your singular opinion and experience?
BTW I believe club membership is more like 37,000 members currently.
Couple of guys at the gym. One tows his rally car with a Disco 5, he had a Disco 4 before that. Others get a new RRS when their 3 year lease term's up because it's easier than running an old one.
My dad's best mate was a serial Land Rover owner. Had a succession of Classic Range Rovers (including a CSK that was written off), at least 2 P38s, and a couple of L322s. Always got rid when they were out of warranty.
My father in law gets a new SUV every 3 years, by which time he's generally covered close to 100k work miles. I can't imagine doing that in a Defender, can you?
Traditional Defenders will still be available for the foreseeable future in knock down kit form. Not a cheap way to acquire one, but certainly possible to spec it as you desire. There are so many Series and later around I don't see any need to panic.
Each to their own, as they say. I like modern vehicles for comfort, but you cannot beat an old Landy. It will just fall to pieces. You can beat an old Land Cruiser though, and it will still take you around the world and back without drama.
Each to their own, as they say. I like modern vehicles for comfort, but you cannot beat an old Landy. It will just fall to pieces. You can beat an old Land Cruiser though, and it will still take you around the world and back without drama.
Dare we speculate on prices?
Looking at LR's website there is certainly a big void in price between the Disco Sport/Evoque - both just around £31k base, and then the Velar at £45k base. Disco then £47k and up it goes from there
So I suspect we're going to be looking at what, £38k for one of these now in basic trim? I think I speculated about £35k earlier, but perhaps that's a bit too cheap when comparing it with the rest of the lineup
Looking at LR's website there is certainly a big void in price between the Disco Sport/Evoque - both just around £31k base, and then the Velar at £45k base. Disco then £47k and up it goes from there
So I suspect we're going to be looking at what, £38k for one of these now in basic trim? I think I speculated about £35k earlier, but perhaps that's a bit too cheap when comparing it with the rest of the lineup
300bhp/ton said:
This is kind of my point. This new Defender appears to be an ideal definition of a Discovery for the 2020 market place.
But that doesn't mean it really is "Land Rover" in the heritage and traditional sense of the brand. I really don't get why people are moaning at me wanting something different to the other 10 vehicles JLR already make. I've not slated any of them!!!! I just wish this Defender was going to be something more than a re-branded D4.
you can bleat on about heritage and tradition all you like, but in the real world noone wants a car based on 'heritage' technology which drives worse than a van. you've noted yourself that the devoted hardcore now drive japanese pickups and SUVs, even farmers don't slum it these days.But that doesn't mean it really is "Land Rover" in the heritage and traditional sense of the brand. I really don't get why people are moaning at me wanting something different to the other 10 vehicles JLR already make. I've not slated any of them!!!! I just wish this Defender was going to be something more than a re-branded D4.
global sales figures for LR for the 5 years to 2018:
looking at that, as CEO what would you do? develop a niche product based on last century tech which noone buys, or utilise your existing platform in a more capable [*] and cheaper platform to cater for the type of customer who's leaving you for toyota?
[*] i say capable but an FFRR is very capable, just not many use them as intended.
also, if this does turn out to be a modern, lighter D4, then i'm all for it. v8 lux trim for me please.
A.J.M said:
And how do you know they aren’t targeting the utility market?
I don't. But roll back a few pages and you'll see about hundred people slate me for even suggesting it!!! Seems I'm doomed if I and doomed if I don't 
A.J.M said:
Or the recreational market?
I would be extremely happy if they turned out to be. But I just don't see it at all in the any of the evidence thus far. Too expensive, too up market, wrong components.A.J.M said:
But it’s curious that having never seen, sat in or driven this new model. You have already written it off as nothing more than an Evoque or similar.
Again FFS are we not both speaking English!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Never, never once have I even hinted or suggested such a stupid thing. So why put words in my mouth???? I've only ever drawn comparisons against the Disco 4, a completely different type of vehicle.
NomduJour said:
So you’re adamant that this is a betrayal of everything Land Rover should be, but you can’t even be bothered to find out what the platform is?
Why are you like this? Have you got some kind of issue? I don't work for JLR, so why would I know the chassis code name. Do you????And I was asking someone who appears as though they may know.
You really are an odd fella.
shirt said:
you've noted yourself that the devoted hardcore now drive japanese pickups and SUVs, even farmers don't slum it these days.
That isn't what I've said. I've said I've seen more Jap trucks just recently, likely because LR have for 4 years now offered nothing suitable.Many farmers round my way still use Land Rover's and have done for years. But they now have nothing to buy from them, so are being forced to look elsewhere. So many have indeed now switched. But not because they didn't want another one, because there wasn't one to buy.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
My father in law gets a new SUV every 3 years, by which time he's generally covered close to 100k work miles. I can't imagine doing that in a Defender, can you?
But why would you buy a Defender or even consider one for that type of use? JLR sell 10 other vehicles that would be ideal for doing that.Sorry I'm just a little lost on the relevance.
I mean would you buy a new Elise or Exige to do 33,000 miles a year in?
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